[merc]

I've read a few reviews which talk about the Epiphany speakers which Danny built for CES, but I can't find any information or pictures of them?

How do they compare to the Alpha LSs sonically, as well as, cosmetically and cost wise?

Thanks for your help!

[Hank]

Hi Merc, I built Danny's personal Alpha's and listened to them quite a while in my home when he brought the drivers down and we installed them.  He's since tweaked the crossover and says it improved the sound.  I made it a point to go to the San Remo to see/hear the Epiphany's and was very impressed.  I heard the mid-sized towers, not the monster birdseye maple veneered ones.  Anyway, the dynamics were great and effortless and the soundstage VERY realistic.  I can't compare to the Alpha's sonically because it's been a long time since I heard them.  Cosmetically, I think my Padauk veneer looks good, but taste in cabinet/veneer looks is like taste in car looks.  Pricewise, it's not a good comparison.  DIY Alpha's are an absolute bargain!  The Epiphany's are a finished product and probably a few thousand bucks.  For a fun trip, you should drive up to listen to Danny's Alpha's and his Epiphany prototypes.

[merc]

Hi Hank!

If I decide on the Alpha LS's, do you know anyone close to me(driving distance) who would build me the cabinets in black?

The other issue with the Alpha LS's is that if I like them as much as I think I will, I'm gonna want to include them in my 7.1 system. What can I use for my center, surrounds, and rear center channels? (and no, I can't use Alpha's there)

I was thinking that the Epiphany's were gonna be smaller and I could use 7 of them in my HT/Music system?

Still, sound is my first priority.

[Danny Richie]

While they are both line source designs and the Neo's have a similar sound they are also different in many ways too.

The Neo 3's used in the Epiphany products have a more detailed sound and better high end extension than the Neo 8's used in the Alpha's, but because the Neo 3's are much shorter there has to be a lot more of them, and that makes them a lot more expensive.

And while the custom built 4" woofers of the Epiphany line does not play as low as the 6" woofers used in the Alpha's, the speed, detail and inner resolution is up a couple of notches over the Alpha's. Midrange is really up a notch too.

Here are a few pics of a couple of the Epiphany speakers at the show.





Keep in mind also the pricing of the three Epiphany models may be a bargain when comparing them to other high end speakers in the market place, but they are still a long way from the kit price of the Alphas.

Their three models retail in the $9,900., $17,900., and $24,900. price ranges.

Cost of producing fine enclosures and dealer margins make up a lot of that cost also...

Performance wise these things may set new standards. The major magazines were bidding with Epiphany as to who could be the first to review these.

Looks like one publication (no names yet) will be receiving all three pairs of speakers that were at the show. I don't recall seeing this kind of excitement over a new speaker line before.

Funny thing is that these were barely assembled right before the show, and one pair was assembled at the show the day before.

It was quite a first showing.

Merc, if you decide you need a matching Alpha center channel then I think I can come up with something for you.

[Hank]

Merc, you really should visit Danny and listen to the Alpha's, then judge for yourself regarding the value.  If you want them, then let me know and we'll talk about cabinets.  By "black" do you mean something like black-stained oak?
Regarding a center channel, Danny has had several inquiries about that, and I bet he's got some ideas on paper that he could finalize into a CC design.

[Rob Babcock]

Will those bad boys be available as a kit?

[scooter]

With the 4" Line Array it would make an excellent center channel. I look forward to seeing your thoughts on a center channel for the Alpha's as well.

I too would be interested in what you would suggest for side surrounds which in IMHO should be di-poles to get the desired effect. Actually a blind test was done with listeners swapping in Di-Poles and Direct radiators (for movies only), the Di-Poles won for side surrounds and Direct Radiators won for Rear Channels.

[azryan]

Rob,

"-Will those bad boys be available as a kit?-"

No. Danny designed these for Epiphany. They're going to be a store brand, sold through dealers.

The Alpha kit is the closest thing to them and while several times cheaper to do a finshed kit, they're no 'distant cousin'.

Then again... you can always look at all the other $2K kits of full range line source speakers that use 16 Neo planars and 18 heavy magnet 6" woofers that equal about a high 90's db point source from about 12-14' away.

Let me know when you find one. heh

scooter,

4 inches is a bit too short for a line. hehe
sorry... had to say it.

"-I look forward to seeing your thoughts on a center channel for the Alpha's as well.-"

He's talked about this in a diff. thread if you do a search.

I know I feel zero need for a center chan with my Alphas. I felt the same way with my Newform 645's too. I've been without a center speaker for years now and would not want to go back.

The center image is very sharp and inherently perfectly matched unlike an actual 'small center' speaker -esp. a horizontally set one (typical) that's meant to be that way only to fit around a TV set.

Plus the cost savings of not buying a cneter speaker or amps for it.
I think it's MUCH better to put that money into a better stereo amp (I'm not one to feel the need for world class surround amps, so more cost savings there).

"-I too would be interested in what you would suggest for side surrounds which in IMHO should be di-poles to get the desired effect.-"

That'd be cool if he were able to get around to designing something like this.
 
The way your ears work though sound isn't the same behind you as in front so an 'exact' matching surround no longer matches when it's behind you (esp. if it's in a wall splattering dipole layout before it ever hits your ears).

Just the nature of it. A much less critical speaker IMO, and mostly 'filler' sound/info IMO.

"-Actually a blind test was done with listeners swapping in Di-Poles and Direct radiators (for movies only), the Di-Poles won for side surrounds and Direct Radiators won for Rear Channels-"

I'd imagine there've been MANY tests. You might want to site which test you're talking about.

It's preference plain and simple IMO.

Depends on the material IMO too as to which works better.
Plus your room layout.

I couldn't imagine that test would need to be 'blind' either. It would have to be beyond obvious  if you were listening to side dipoles and then switched to rear monopoles wouldn't you think?

On top of the fact that you can't see speakers that are behind you and side dipoles should still be slightly behind you too (~100-120 degrees) I guess making a 'blind' test 'inevitable'.

[scooter]

Hi azryan,

"4 inches is a bit too short for a line. hehe sorry... had to say it. "

No you didn't have to say it, you just couldn't resist it.

"I know I feel zero need for a center chan with my Alphas. I felt the same way with my Newform 645's too. I've been without a center speaker for years now and would not want to go back.

The center image is very sharp and inherently perfectly matched unlike an actual 'small center' speaker -esp. a horizontally set one (typical) that's meant to be that way only to fit around a TV set.

Plus the cost savings of not buying a cneter speaker or amps for it.
I think it's MUCH better to put that money into a better stereo amp (I'm not one to feel the need for world class surround amps, so more cost savings there). "

In my current system I use 3 Meridian 5500's across the front of my home theater. The center speaker is behind an 8 foot wide THX screen. The room is large 24 x 30. I can turn my center channel off and it is noticable especially if you are seated at the extremes, the imaging suffers. In the case of the Alpha's I am doing the same thing, using an upright Alpha but will use a 10 foot wide THX screen, in the case of screens bigger is better. As you stated it is a matter of preference, in a smaller room I would probably forgo the center as you have, as I don't think it would add that much and I would not have a center that was not identical to the Left and Right speakers.

" The way your ears work though sound isn't the same behind you as in front so an 'exact' matching surround no longer matches when it's behind you (esp. if it's in a wall splattering dipole layout before it ever hits your ears).

Just the nature of it. A much less critical speaker IMO, and mostly 'filler' sound/info IMO. "

My room doubles as an entertainment area for guests, where they are standing up and moving around. I use the meridian Ambisonics mode so that all the seakers are being driven and you pretty much get the same listening experience whever you are in the room.

The room the Alphas will eventually be going in will probably be larger than my existing 22 x 30 room (it still to be built). I am moving house and the Theater is considered a fixture so I need to build another one.

" I'd imagine there've been MANY tests. You might want to site which test you're talking about.

It's preference plain and simple IMO. "

I cannot find the link again now, I did have a look, next time I will ensure I post a reference. It was preference, from memory using 5 test subjects it was 3 vs 2 in favor of directs in the rear but 4 vs 1 for the side surrounds in favour of di-poles. In the end when it comes to audio it is always based on preference. My preference is definitely di-poles for side surrounds.

" It depends on the material IMO too as to which works better.
Plus your room layout. "

I agree, but in a small room you would be unlikely to install side surrounds anyway or at least I wouldn't bother. In a larger room IMO they are beneficial.

" I couldn't imagine that test would need to be 'blind' either. It would have to be beyond obvious if you were listening to side dipoles and then switched to rear monopoles wouldn't you think? "

IMO the difference is not as huge as you would think. Directs certainly do allow you to localise where the sound is coming from more easily and di-poles giving a more diffuse unlocalisable sound, in 95% of movies from what I have been able to read the side surrounds really only provide ambience, this also concurs with the listening tests I have done as well.

" Questions for you "

I know that you have been using the Alpha's for a while, if you ran them permanently with a sub what cross-over point would you be using (I am considering building two IB unit for the theater, one for the front and one for the rear) ?

I also saw that you said that they were very easy to build. Given that I have never built anything in my life, how hard is it to get a reasonable finish on the units or should I get someone else to make the cabinets if I want a quality finish, or alternately build the cabinets and let someone else put the finish on ?

I have enjoyed your posts especially your comparison of the Alpha's vs the RM40's, which was the other speaker I was considering.

[azryan]

Good points scooter on room and surround stuff.

I think the only thing I'd add more is that I think often in surround systems using a center chan. the center becomes a sort of 'gap filler'.

I 100% believe you when you say that you can tell the diff. when you switch out the center, but that's probably less than optimal stereo mains set up.

There's always compromises of course so no crime or anything.

"-I know that you have been using the Alpha's for a while, if you ran them permanently with a sub what cross-over point would you be using (I am considering building two IB unit for the theater, one for the front and one for the rear) ?-"

Several things will influence this in your room.
 
The Alphas have such fast tight bass and play so low you can easily cross then as low as possible.

Often 40Hz is the lowest a processor goes though and the more bass you take off the mains the more amp power they have to do everything else.

Then the more the sub bass can be loaded into the room more effi. from corner loading and the faster the main's woofers can more 'cuz they're not having to play the deepest heaviest stuff too.

Complicated but it's better than not having the option will a speaker that doesn't play as low.

IMO the highest you can get away with tends to work best for most mains which would be the opposite of say running the Alphas full range and then using a sub's lowpass filter to bring subs in REALLY low like ~25-30Hz but either extreme should work.

All depends on how to best optimize your amp power, room loading etc. bass speed, tightness, max SPL.

You probably won't know what works best till you play with x-over points with the Alphas and the subs.

"-I also saw that you said that they were very easy to build. Given that I have never built anything in my life, how hard is it to get a reasonable finish on the units or should I get someone else to make the cabinets if I want a quality finish, or alternately build the cabinets and let someone else put the finish on ?-"

I never really built much in my life either. I built several sonotube subs but anyone can do that reallllly easy.
The Alphas take some work, but it's not hard IMO.

The finish is one of the easiest parts of the cabinet build. It's like putting a giant wooden sticker on the cabinets. Should take you a short time on some afternoon.

If you have someone hold the veneer up for you while you tack it down and roll out any air bubbles you'll do it perfectly.

I f'ed up one part on mine 'cuz I did it on my own 100% which was just stupid. Got an air bubble that was too big to roll out.
You won't have this problem though if your wife/girlfriend holds the veneer for you.

It's really light and doesn't take long to tack down so very easy and man does it look cool to see this much veneer on a cabinet this big. If you pick a really nice wood you'll drop jaws big time.

About 8 times cheaper to DIY (buy online) than the cost of a 'veneer upgrade' on even bargain companies offering nice wood.

"-I have enjoyed your posts especially your comparison of the Alpha's vs the RM40's, which was the other speaker I was considering.-"

Thanks. It was fun to do. Just started getting into the 100's out here when I got done so good timing.

I'd like to see other people do the project and post their own pics. Someone needs to do one in gloss black and another in a bird's eye maple. hehe

[scooter]

" I think the only thing I'd add more is that I think often in surround systems using a center chan. the center becomes a sort of 'gap filler'.

I 100% believe you when you say that you can tell the diff. when you switch out the center, but that's probably less than optimal stereo mains set up. "

My set up is excellent for stereo as well. The center in my system adds weight depth and prescence to the movie when it is on. I would say that it enhance the experience by around 10-15% depending on the type of movie. Effects such as trains moving across the screen are also more realistic. The difference is not huge but there is a difference. The Meridian surround sound formats are so good that in many cases I do not listen in stereo but use their Tri-Field format for music listening.

When I start building my Alpha's which should be April/May this year I shall take pictures and show you the results. They will likely be done in a light coloured wood, my wife will decide the colour when she determines the colour scheme for the room. A small price to pay for domestic bliss.

[merc]

Thanks everyone for your info and opinions...

So, should I build a pair of these speakers with the hope to eventually have Danny do a matching center for them?

OR, will I not miss a center for my Multichannel SACD, DVD-A and DVD-V audio? Then again.... I am about to take ownership of a tubed output universal player 5 tubes, .1 SS output...?

[scooter]

I would certainly still like Danny to design a center channel. In listening I have done with music I do not think that you will miss the center channel with SACD and DVD-Audio, in movies depending on the size of the room I think you would get a better effect using a center. In a very large room I would not be without a center.

I think that what Danny would have to do is to use a curved design for the cabinet to get better horizontal dispersion otherwise as Danny has said the high frequency response will be limited to the length of the array which is only 6 feet which would be unacceptable as anyone seated outside the direct width of the center would have a severe drop off in high frequency info.

If no center is available I intend to use a normal Alpha in upright mode behind a THX screen, this is another option for you.

[Danny Richie]

I think that what Danny would have to do is to use a curved design for the cabinet to get better horizontal dispersion

Are you a mind reader too?

Actually that is exactly what I am having to do for the Epiphany Audio line.

You could do the same thing with the Alpha LS drivers.

Building the box is a little tricky though.

The Neo's and woofers are pretty close in length and could be used in paired groups. 6 woofers and 6 Neo's or 8 woofers and 8 Neo's.

Then curve the front baffle in segments by about 5 degrees or so per segment.

It would match in tonal qualities, output levels, power handling, etc. to the mains.

I would also recommend using a sealed box for the woofers.

Any of you that own Alpha LS's and want to build a center channel like that will have all of my support in doing so.

Send me your finished boxes with drivers mounted and I'll shoot responses and design a crossover similar to what is in the Alphas to match it.

No charge for the design work since you will be buying drivers and crossover parts anyway. Just don't make me have to do any full assembly work or build any boxes right now or I will never be able to get to it.

[scooter]

OK in April May I will give it a go. If I seal the box how much bass extension does it lose ?. In my case the speakers will be behind a fake wall so I can make the enclosures as big as I like, if I make the boxes larger will this help make up the difference in bass extension so it matches the rears ?

[merc]

Danny,

How about you sell me the drivers, crossovers and cab plans for an incredicle price... and then I quickly build a center channel also matching those front and rear speakers?

Just wondering./......? :-]

My email for this purpose is govtdog@msn.com ...

Take Care and Thanks,
merc

[jonwb]

...You could do the same thing with the Alpha LS drivers.

Building the box is a little tricky though.

The Neo's and woofers are pretty close in length and could be used in paired groups. 6 woofers and 6 Neo's or 8 woofers and 8 Neo's.

Then curve the front baffle in segments by about 5 degrees or so per segment. ...

Any of you that own Alpha LS's and want to build a center channel like that will have all of my support in doing so.

Send me your finished boxes with drivers mounted and I'll shoot responses and design a crossover similar to what is in the Alphas to match it.

No charge for the design work since you will be buying drivers and crossover parts anyway. Just don't make me have to do any full assembly work or build any boxes right now or I will never be able to get to it.

Here is a box concept that I came up with...  I think its along the lines of what was being described.





I don't know if that's what you had in mind.  Seemed to make sense to me to lay the NEO8 panels on their side and make a small angle between them so you don't end up w/ dead-spots (knowing they are dispersion impared along the long axis).  

Uses 4 pairs of drivers, I don't know if that would work out for impedance.  Obviously I'd need bracing and dividers and such.  This box layout is about 33" wide with 10 degrees between adjoining segements and can basically be as deep as necesary.  I was trying to keep it reasonably sized.

Any thoughts?

[Danny Richie]

I think you are on the right track.

Very doable.

If you use a sealed box then the depth will not be all that deep either.

[azryan]

Hmmm....

It's the face that I can't figure out how to curve.

At first I was thinking making a ton of tiny v shaped cuts in two sheets of MDF filling in the cuts w/ glue, bending it to a smooth curve and bond the other curved sheet to the first.

Then I couldn't figure out how I'd cut out the driver holes.

If I went with the flat sections like in these pics, then we're talking having the face made out of several sepp. sections only glued to eachother at the edges?
That seems weak to me. I would start with 2-ply MDF (.75" squares bonded together).

But maybe I could also run several MDF braces going from front to back w/ a LARGE hole cut out in each brace (similar to the Alphas front to back/top to bottom brace).

Now that seems like it could get strong enough to me.

Danny were you thinking ~4 neos/woofers would work? I thought you figured it'd need more like 6?

There wouldn't be a good way to wire 5 of each right? That might be cool to have a center woofer/neo actually face directly forward.

[Hank]

You could do what furniture/cabinetmakers do for curved surfaces.  Laminate a few sheets of solid-core plywood, clamping to a jig after applying glue to the sheets.  Use maybe 3 or 4 pieces of 1/4" solid-core ply, already cut to a bit over the baffle final dimensions.  The radius would be fairly small and doable, and you could apply dampening material to the inside of the baffle and brace it very well.  I think it just might work.