[Pez]

Good on you, if you don't want to do mods that's your perogative. I for one have owned and currently do own pieces of equipment I would never mod. That said, I have a lot that has been. I will say honestly my modded gear is a huge step up sonically from my unmodded gear and most of the unmodded gear I eventually plan on getting rid of.

[K Shep]

verdun,
This is an Audio website.  Please stick to the topic.

This isn't entirely true.

OK satfrat.  Then do you mind translating verndun's last post. 

I know some of us get side tracked and use auto and wine analogies, but I have no idea what some members are talking about at times. 

[verdun47]

OK  K Shep    I'll spell it out with brevity.

Pez said (and I directly qoute)  "Mods don't make a difference."

They do -  I gave an auto example from my direct experience (which is also scientifically provable), and an audio example from my direct experience - I had the highest performance op-amps replace older low price/performance devices, ditto a number of caps.

[rollo]

It'll be a lot cheaper for you if I say this, so I will. Mods don't make a difference. 

Just like dropping a few grand on high performance fuel injectors, high performance suspension, oversized air intake systems, superchargers, and NO2 system in your car won't make it run any faster or smoother. 

 You cannot be serious. Mods certainly make a difference. Wether good or bad. Especially power supplies. A coulping cap change the same.
   Since you used the car analogy, you mean to tell me that installing a Turbo and related gear DOES not make the car go faster. Tell that to all the other Toyotas I beat in the Quarter mile. 



charles

[TomS]

Uh, Pez has a boatload of modded gear for a reason.  I think he just forgot a  on his statement. 

Perhaps just a bit of cynicism in terms of saving a lot of money (true) by holding to a belief that mods make no difference ...

[rollo]

Uh, Pez has a boatload of modded gear for a reason.  I think he just forgot a  on his statement. 

Perhaps just a bit of cynicism in terms of saving a lot of money (true) by holding to a belief that mods make no difference ...

  ARGHAAAAAAAAAA! Missed the pun   I love this place.


charles

[TomS]

Uh, Pez has a boatload of modded gear for a reason.  I think he just forgot a  on his statement. 

Perhaps just a bit of cynicism in terms of saving a lot of money (true) by holding to a belief that mods make no difference ...

  ARGHAAAAAAAAAA! Missed the pun   I love this place.


charles

Well, ya sure do have to read minds at times 

[woodsyi]

Pez makes full-hearted decisions.  He is a man who knows that his heart has reasons for which his brain knows nothing about.  Passionate he is.  He wouldn't make foolhardy judgment calls on modding audio gears.   

[K Shep]

OK  K Shep    I'll spell it out with brevity.

Pez said (and I directly qoute)  "Mods don't make a difference."

They do -  I gave an auto example from my direct experience (which is also scientifically provable), and an audio example from my direct experience - I had the highest performance op-amps replace older low price/performance devices, ditto a number of caps.

I am not sure why you want to jab me verdun?  Each of your posts has had a negative vibe and each has been aimed at me, what gives? 

I didn't want to pull the "you are new here card" but you have pulled it for me.

Dude, take your time, read the members posts and please try and make sense when you are contributing.  At the bottom of the reply window is a Preview box, click on that and you will be able to proof read your post, you may then revise it at that point.  The majority of members here are friendly to each other.  I have become personal friends with a few of the men I have met here, stick around a while and take it easy and you may too.

[macrojack]

So it would seem that our consensus feeling on this is that there can be no consensus. Everyone must conclude for themselves the efficacy and wisdom of equipment modding, piece by piece and person by person. Sometimes it proves to be a waste of money or even a step backwards and other times the heavens open up and buyer experiences results such that he can't wait to invest further.

Ultimately we all seem to recognize that the process is born of tinkering and that we must feel comfortable that the tinkerer knows whereof he tinkers. There was fairly broad agreement that the tinkerer's pedigree is of great importance.

Has anyone here ordered anything from Underwood Wally's menu? Two level Ones, a Level TwoA and a Coke. Hold the headphone jack and the balanced inputs. Are these available through Amazon yet?

[K Shep]

I for one have owned and currently do own pieces of equipment I would never mod.

I started the thread with the "mod company" in mind, shipping a component off to a 3rd party guy in hopes it would return performing better.  A few of you have shared that you mod gear yourself.  I never considered that option.  I am able to compare the audible signature of my 2 DACs.  They are very close, I have to switch back and forth blind and I am unable to differ 100% of the time.  My experience has taught me that high-end gear sounds quite similar to a point.  I bring this up to ask how do you know your bettering the unit by adding better parts and pieces?  Only when you reassemble the equipment plug it in and play music through it. 

What if it sounds less to your liking?

[woodsyi]

I am not sure why you want to jab me verdun?  Each of your posts has had a negative vibe and each has been aimed at me, what gives? 

What do you expect, man?  You stole his thunder.   Easy there. 

[woodsyi]

I have third party modded gears.  Extreme Hurricanes is a prime example of modification service that improved the performance of the gear.  Bill doesn't do it anymore and I am guessing the supply of the older model is getting scarce.  I wouldn't be surprised as Mr. Salvatore of Highend Audio fame has proclaimed thus:

In fact, the original Hurricane, when purchased used at a good price, may be the best value of any amplifier ever made, considering the three conflicting goals: highest power, highest quality and lowest price. I know of no other amplifier that would score as high as a pair of used Hurricane when attempting to optimize these three goals at the same time.

In this case, the mod essentially got rid of the reliability issue the original equipment was known to have and the mod comes with a 5 year warranty.  I am going to send them back one of these days to have them checked out and power painted (red) before the warranty runs out.  As for the sound after the mod, it's worth the money to me and that's saying a lot.   

[nicksgem10s]

Just about all audio components are built to a price point and there are decisions made about parts selection based on cost.

To me these are compromises that are made by the designer/manufacturer.

With the markup that exists in traditional audio retail I understand this is a common practice.

After having listened to many stock components over the years and modified equipment I know where I stand on the issue.

If the modifications address shortcomings in the stock component it can make a world of difference.

I also believe it depends on the knowledge and skill level of the technician or DIYer.

I also would not agree to having something modified without knowing the exact changes that are being made.

I have so much interest in improving audio playback that I keep an open mind when it comes to modifications.

If it helps you enjoy the music more I say go for it.   

[K Shep]

I am not sure why you want to jab me verdun?  Each of your posts has had a negative vibe and each has been aimed at me, what gives? 

What do you expect, man?  You stole his thunder.   Easy there.

I take that as a compliment.  Someone had to get this topic off the ground.  For you woodsyi, I will take it easy 

[avahifi]

I guess I would define "Mods" as changing parts values and brands, changing cables and wire types, and adding acoustic damping and such without making any significant improvements in the overall design topography or making the electrical engineering effort to determine the worst case problems in that particular unit.  I am dubvious of this approach because everything we have learned over the years regarding electrical engineering suggests that almost always the worst case problems are the actual electronic circuit designs, either/and the actual design or the linearity of the active parts used in that circuit.  I am suspect of any "mod" projects that does not have the engineering background to locate and fix worst case problems first.  Of course some passive parts replacement can do a world of good, especially if the originals were a design blunder, such as using polarized capacitors in a coupling application where the audio signal swing can drive them into negative bias range, or simply under-rated power values causing parts to cook to death long term.

I do wish that "capacitor replacements", for example, would be done more carefully.  This means measuring the real value of each part removed and replacing it with a matching part of the exact same value.  Capacitors are not the value printed on them, they are the value they actually measure.  The most important tool for an amateur trying do it your self mods is a precision capacitor meter.  Since many capacitors are 20 percent tolerance or worse, randomly changing lots of them in a given circuit will randomly change the actual circuit operation, for better or for worse.  If the actual values are not held as a constant, then any differences in sound (and there will be differences) cannot be reliably judged to be better or worse - - - just different (unless the original part was obviously defective).

When we offer a "rebuild" for an audio unit, we are offering a completely new audio circuit design that is engineered to fit in the place of the original circuits.  For example, in the Insight 400 rebuild/upgrade of the old Dyna St-400 amplifier, the heat sink is stripped to bare metal, all the original Dynaco circuit boards and wiring are discarded, all are replaced by new modern AVA circuits.  The only thing remaining is the power transformer and some of the mechanical bits that have no history of premature failure.

I would also suggest that "built down to a price point" is not a significant issue in any audiophile grade component.  Precision metal film resistors are about 6 cents each in quantity.  High reliability capacitors are available at 20 cents to 5 dollars each depending upon type.  "Audiophile" grade passive parts are simply a giant scam in my book, preying on the folks with no EE background and no skills to separate fact from hogwash.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

P.S.  We do not use "cheap Chinese vacuum tubes" although some arriving Chinese tubes are just fine.  They are learning fast.

[Pez]

But what about those who have an engineering background and still use boutique parts? It seems to me that just because one subscribes to one school of thought doesn't mean that an entire industry does or should. I feel it important to point out that those very boutique parts manufacturers are also electrical engineers with vast backgrounds in EE and and extensive knowledge in a very specified sector of the field, that being the actual manufacturing of specific parts. Would it be out of the realm of possibility that those individuals would beg to differ with statements like "'Audiophile' grade passive parts are simply a giant scam in my book, preying on the folks with no EE background and no skills to separate fact from hogwash." Forgive me for saying so, but blanket statements of this sort are rarely true and this particular one seems rather contradictory if those very components are being manufactured by EE themselves.

[zybar]

The word "modify" does not mean improve. It only means change.

And how does one compare what their CDP used to sound like to the new modified CDP one month later upon its return from the mod company.  In other words, your audible memory is very short and psycho acoustics has an affect on how good the CDP truly sounds.

Come on sites like this, make friends, and get together to do comparisons between the stock and modified units. 

At least that is what I have done a few different times.

George

[avahifi]

Please tell me what boutique grade audiophile parts are being made by Electrical Engineers?  Point me to their web sites so I can investigate.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[verdun47]

#56 Pez thanks my thoughts also, though there are wise words in #55.
#55 FVA says the biggest problems are circuit designs/active parts and should be addressed/upgraded first. Well seemingly many manufacturers don't use optimal circuits, including AVA, as AVA upgrades. BUT information and design evolve. Maybe they were adequate at a price point, but not the best achieveable ie upgradeable.

K Shep     no bad vibe - it just your post #1 read that non manufacturer modders/upgraders sell snake oil - sorry but the facilitator and myself clearly took it that way - you could have been clearer and suggested some modders sell snake oil.  You addressed it yourself by asking "am I a hypocrite ?"  So I gave you an auto example (same theme btw) and an audio example.  I'm not about to continue the discussion without being specific.  The benefits of upgrading are covered well by some above. Incidently 'modding' to me implies an upgrade. As stated, it depends on who, and what they do.