Component Mods

Pez · « **Reply #20 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 06:37 pm »

Precisely how I feel about the issue.

macrojack · « **Reply #21 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 06:53 pm »

Pez - You get to say what is a "substantive improvement". You vote with your money when you think you have found such. This is in accord with your earlier counseling so I shouldn't think you would disagree, unless you are concerned about conspiring with me on this topic.

I don't care to dwell on the conspiracy angle - you introduced that.

As for being duped by the industry, there is indeed an arrangement available from the audio magazines, if a manufacturer would like to assure his acceptance by the readership. Their influence should be evident to all of us. Call it a conspiracy if you need to. I call it duping.

Your point about improvements since the 70s, although I thought you intended to be sarcastic, is well placed. Consider all the improvements, one iteration over another, that have been claimed by a 30 year old company and imagine just how enormously different the first and last would have to be. High end audio manufacturers play to a very confined audience and thus have to instigate repeat business among their followers to remain afloat. This is done by the application of terms like MK II, MK III, MK IV, etc. Also look for sure benefits in Signature, Improved, Revision A and Ultimate.

I maintain that this formula operates just above the fraud line and that we should, by now, be sophisticated enough to avoid falling for it unless, as you suggested earlier, we want to drink that sugary beverage and be kids again.

Pez · « **Reply #22 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 07:00 pm »

So, in essence my Bella Extreme mkII amp was a full hearty purchase because of the "MKII" Denotation and there is no sonic benefits? How can you say such a thing with certainty? I think it's quite a stretch to go from "Manufacturers are trying to refresh products to garner new business" to "The lack of actual improvements if any are tantamount to fraud" Come on that's a pretty absurd rationalization. Nobody is out to get you or anyone else, they're out to get your money, and the quickest way to insure they fail is if they try to defraud even one customer or under deliver on refresh. The quickest way they succeed is by actually offering something that is subjectively better than previous iterations.

Wayner · « **Reply #23 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 07:10 pm »

I'd like to make a clarification, since the AVA name got brought up it this thread. AVA does not do "mods". They do "upgrades". As the speed of new devices become more and more available, new, faster and more dynamic and musical circuits are being developed. This year has seen several significant upgrades that have brought several products to the forefront, including the Insight series and the U70 mod, which has brought to market the new Ultravalve all tube power amp. Upgrades are affordable, "green" and a great way to get new equipment. It's like getting brand new, state of the art equipment at a fraction of the cost, because of chassis recycling.

Frank and crew do a great job and turnaround is very prompt.

Wayner

macrojack · « **Reply #24 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 07:15 pm »

Here we are - back from the commercial break - thank you Wayner. Always nice to hear from our sponsors.

Pez - I should bookmark you. Very entertaining. In you first sentence you meant "foolhardy", no?
I'm not saying that improvements do not exist, but I would say that they seldom meet the claims made for them by the mags that collect excessive ad rates from them.

Don't call it a conspiracy - think of it as a system.

Also would appreciate it if you would use my words inside those quote marks rather than your interpretation. Or just don't use quotes.

Another point that has been hinted but not stated is that anyone who lays out money in anticipation of improvement is very apt to hear improvement. Such is human nature. Audiophiles are always saying that everything is subjective just before making definitive proclamations. Manufacturers are very appreciative of both foibles.

Pez · « **Reply #25 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 07:23 pm »

And I take it you only use objectivity when choosing your equipment? You'd be the first... ever.

I do agree that the magazines are a sort of self contained system, they make money off of advertising, and the advertisers are being reviewed and most likely those reviews are glowing. No conspiracy there it is obvious to anyone.

Also I apologize for my poor editing skills. I didn't know we were being graded.

Now I'd appreciate it if you stuck with the topic at hand rather than going for personal attacks on ridiculous things like using quotes and improper word usage.

lcrim · « **Reply #26 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 07:36 pm »

I was thinking more about people who mod equipment like Wayne @ Bolder and Kevin Barrett @ KAB who I have no doubt are selling quality work and have the deserved reputation for doing so. I don't buy very expensive stuff and don't churn through equipment like some but like Mark from Canada who checked in earlier, I have found a few modders whom I trust and stick with them.
I have heard, as have others , the improvements provided by these mods.
The need to sell new models is just capitalism not a conspiracy.

satfrat · « **Reply #27 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 07:37 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 4 Dec 2009, 07:10 pm

I'd like to make a clarification, since the AVA name got brought up it this thread. AVA does not do "mods". They do "upgrades". As the speed of new devices become more and more available, new, faster and more dynamic and musical circuits are being developed. This year has seen several significant upgrades that have brought several products to the forefront, including the Insight series and the U70 mod, which has brought to market the new Ultravalve all tube power amp. Upgrades are affordable, "green" and a great way to get new equipment. It's like getting brand new, state of the art equipment at a fraction of the cost, because of chassis recycling.

Frank and crew do a great job and turnaround is very prompt.

Wayner

Wayner, could you explain to me the difference bewteen a "mod" and an "upgrade"? Is there special solder used, special electronic parts used by AVA that differ from what's being used by a "modder"? Frankly I don't see an apples/oranges difference between the 2 myself.

Thanks.

Cheers,
Robin

*Scotty* · « **Reply #28 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 07:39 pm »

I am one of those who think there actually have been improvements to the sound audio components over the last thirty or so years.
I have kept some stuff around long past the sell by date and have actually done the listening tests. The last two moves however forced the elimination of gear that sat unused on the floor of the closet. Most of it went to Goodwill or friends. I think one of the things a person who gets their gear modded has a reason to expect is technical competence when it comes to reworking surface mount boards. You also should be able to discuss the nature of the modifications. The modder should be willing to tell you what they are going to do and what parts are going to be used as well as what to expect from the mods sonically. I would never do business with someone who wanted to keep the whole process a secret.
Scotty

Pez · « **Reply #29 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 07:52 pm »

Satfrat makes a good point. I think of it this way.

Modding has a connotation that invokes an overly enthusiastic dweeb popping open a piece of equipment they had no hand in designing to make rather innocuous changes such as changing out capacitors and the like with similarly spec'd items. ie warranty voiding stuff.

Upgrading seems to imply that the equipment was reconfigured by the original manufacturer and is sanctioned by them. No warranty voided.

anyone else think that covers it?

*Scotty* · « **Reply #30 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 07:53 pm »

Robin, an upgrade by the original manufacturer differs from a modification done by an outside contractor. When a manufacturer does an upgrade they are working on a circuit that they are intimately familiar with. It is also a change to the circuit with a known positive result. They aren't shooting in the dark. A modder on the other hand is frequently working in unknown territory without a circuit schematic and a positive sonic outcome commensurate with the labor and parts cost is not guaranteed.
Scotty

Wayner · « **Reply #31 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 07:57 pm »

satfrat,

Frank's upgrades are completely different circuit designs, usually featuring the latest improved, high speed OP amps or semi-conductors. Not simply replacing capacitors, resistors, etc., with more expensive "better sounding" components. That is the difference.

Wayner

satfrat · « **Reply #32 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 08:02 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 4 Dec 2009, 07:57 pm

satfrat,

Frank's upgrades are completely different circuit designs, usually featuring the latest improved, high speed OP amps or semi-conductors. Not simply replacing capacitors, resistors, etc., with more expensive "better sounding" components. That is the difference.

Wayner

That makes sense Wayner, thanks.

Cheers,
Robin

Wayner · « **Reply #33 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 08:08 pm »

Thanks Robin!

I am worried that the term "modifier" is a slippery slope. Here is my example. If Kevin at KAB puts some different tonearm wiring in a Technics table for you, I think he is just modifiying the existing design with something that some may question as to the benefit/cost ratio for the mod. Does it really sound better?

Now when Kevin puts in a silicone trough damping system, that is one of their inventions. This isn't a mod, it's an upgrade. See where I'm coming from?

Wayner

srb · « **Reply #34 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 08:19 pm »

Quote from: *Scotty* on 4 Dec 2009, 07:53 pm

When a manufacturer does an upgrade they are working on a circuit that they are intimately familiar with. It is also a change to the circuit with a known positive result. They aren't shooting in the dark.

Also, independent modders can be very skilled, but any dude with a soldering iron and some hand tools can go into business and call themselves a modification company.

I worked with an ex Burr-Brown engineer who went into business for himself specializing in designing test fixtures for big industry players, including Hughes Aerospace. Not only did he have amazing technical design skills*, he knew what it took to solder and desolder small surface mount components and invested in state of the art tools, including a resistance soldering station, a desoldering station and a surface mount soldering/desoldering station with precision dies for all the package types.

You had better darn well know who you're doing business with, particularly if surface mount rework is required.

Steve

* I'm not going to mention the company's name, but he was asked by a large well known botique audio manufacturer to consult on improving their DAC and analog filtering in the least expensive of their three CD player models. When his modification made that player outperform their top of the line player, they had him "dial it down" until they could supply the time and money to have him improve the two higher-end units.

verdun47 · « **Reply #35 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 11:11 pm »

Pez sorry it isn't (entirely) so >> I run probably the worlds best spark plugs, Iridium Power/.4mm centre electrode - these require provably less firing voltage: is this detectable in the drivers seat ?
According to me yes - hey no one forced me to do it. Would you want 30/40yrs old chips put into your amplification ? I thought not. (I recently had the op-amps in my middle-aged amplification upgraded and some caps replaced, beneficially.)

Re: Component Mods
? Reply #11 on: Today at 04:27 PM ?

* Reply with quoteQuote

It'll be a lot cheaper for you if I say this, so I will. Mods don't make a difference.

Just like dropping a few grand on high performance fuel injectors, high performance suspension, oversized air intake systems, superchargers, and NO2 system in your car won't make it run any faster or smoother.

K Shep · « **Reply #36 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 11:43 pm »

verdun,
This is an Audio website. Please stick to the topic.

BobM · « **Reply #37 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 11:45 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 4 Dec 2009, 07:57 pm

Frank's upgrades are completely different circuit designs, usually featuring the latest improved, high speed OP amps or semi-conductors. Not simply replacing capacitors, resistors, etc., with more expensive "better sounding" components. That is the difference.

But Wayne, it's pretty much universally known that Frank doesn't believe in boutique anything. His designs and upgrades are based on new circuit improvements. I certainly wouldn't call them mods at all. They are engineered "improvements" or at least changes. I have personally heard some of his stuff that has been "modded" with better quality parts and they then sounded awesome. Far better than the originals. I truly wish Frank could see the light and offer a "deluxe" version of his products, because the engineering design is truly there. The execution could be improved on though, I'm afraid. Hell, just change out the cheap CHinese crappy tubes for something better and you will immediately hear more of what these components are capable of.

K Shep · « **Reply #38 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 11:59 pm »

Quote from: *Scotty* on 4 Dec 2009, 07:53 pm

When a manufacturer does an upgrade they are working on a circuit that they are intimately familiar with.

This is the point I was trying to make. I am completely comfortable sending a component to the guy that built it. I won't send my prized preamp to a company that says they can improve the sound coming out of said preamp without knowing what they intend to do to it and gaining trust. Like Mark in Canada said trust earned.

I have phoned the customer service lines of 4 of the manufacturers I own. All of them without exception were/are kind and courteous. In fact I remember all of their names. I feel a bond with them because I bought their product and I am enthusiastic about the gear. Perhaps this is the same type of bond one may encounter with a "mod company" but I find it difficult to imagine with out a shot in the dark, as another member mentioned.

I am completely satisfied with my CT5 I don't plan to upgrade my preamp for years, I just used it as an example.

satfrat · « **Reply #39 on:** 5 Dec 2009, 12:39 am »

Quote from: K Shep on 4 Dec 2009, 11:43 pm

verdun,
This is an Audio website. Please stick to the topic.

This isn't entirely true. While this Circle is General Audio, The Pub is for nonaudio subjects and the Manufacuring Circles are free to talk about wherever their facilitators care to allow.

Cheers,
Robin