[turkey]

I have found with both wood finishing and auto body finishing, going from coarse/medium directly to fine can give "OK" or "satisfactory" results and sure is a lot quicker, but when I take the extra time and work my way up the abrasive ladder with progressively finer grits ending in ultra-fine, the finish produced is elevated to "superb" or "fantastic"!
 
I'm sure knife blades are no different in that respect.
 
Steve

Not true.

The idea is to use the coarse stone to raise a burr. Until you've done that, you haven't actually done anything. Then you raise the angle and work on the very edge of the blade with the fine stone. We're talking about probably 1/64" or less. The fine stone has no trouble at all polishing that, and it happens very quickly.

You can then use a thumbnail to verify whether or not the edge is smooth. (And it is when using this method of sharpening.)

Basically, you need to forget your preconceptions and learn from the guy who has actually done research into the edge - John Juranitch.

Read his book. I'm here to verify that his methods work, and that they're easier and less expensive than the rest.

[turkey]

I use an 8" DMT double diamond stone with 300 and 1000 grit, then finish by stropping on a 14"x4" piece of  rough leather mounted on a board.  If I'm using SS then I use a steel between sharpening, if using high carbon Japanese I just restrop.  I have some antique stones for straight razors that sometimes I use for kicks, but they are a bit of a pain.

I've found that a strop can also work instead of a fine stone. It just takes longer to get the same results.

A smooth steel is really a worthwhile accessory. It perfects the edge after sharpening, and is also good when used periodically between sharpenings. On the other hand, I've found that the typical steels that they sell that have a textured surface just trash a good edge. I just laugh every time I see some "chef" start working away at a carving knife with a steel.

A good straight razor has already been tapered so well that you don't need to remove much metal at all to raise a burr. So a medium grit stone is appropriate for these, followed by a very fine grit stone or strop.

[turkey]

I do think a progression gives better results when ultimate sharpness is the goal.  Obviously a serviceable edge doesn't require that much work.  For example, I can sharpen a Wusthof chef's knife on a coarse or extra-coarse DMT Diasharp plate and it will shave coming right off the Coarse.  But refining the scratch pattern will allow it to cut a lot better.

It's only the very edge of the blade that does the cutting. It's so small that it's very easy to take it from coarse scratches to very fine with just a fine stone. I've looked at edges with jeweler's loupes, and you can easily see what's going on.

The Razor Edge method produces an edge that is exceedingly sharp, and is smooth and polished. You can verify that with a thumbnail or with an Edge Tester.

http://razoredgesystems.com/index.php/Products/Testers/9_Edge_Tester.html

[Rob Babcock]

In a high end kitchen knife it's not just the edge.  This risks getting too esoteric for this forum but a the polish up entire bevel affects the way the knife performs in food.  This probably isn't true with woodworking tools but decades as a chef has proved to my satisfaction that it's true with cutting food.

The RE edge tester is pretty effective for the dead-basic job of finding burrs and flat spots.  It's too coarse to analyze what's going on at a deeper level.  A 120 grit edge will bite into the tester, but that edge probably won't tree-top hair or fall thru a ripe tomato.  A loupe is better than the naked eye.  Higher power magnification is even more instructive; a stereo microscope is a great tool.  Obviously there are better ones yet, including the SEM's that Iowa State University published in their fascinating study of sharpening (about 2 decades after J's still-useful work).  His conclusions were effective for meat packers but his understanding has been shown to be incomplete, and never addressed what we now know about metallurgy.  I have the PDF but no practical way to link it, especially not knowing the copyright implications.

At any rate, I'm working with kid-gloves here.  I get that you dig the system you use, Turkey.  As I've often said, different strokes.  There really is no reason to go to General Quarters here.  The OP understands your point but is asking about waterstones & the EP.  I'm not bashing your jig, but you should acknowledge that GF is looking for specific information, information that doesn't negate your preferred method of sharpening.

Mostly I don't think you get what GF is talking about- if I'm right it's "vanity sharpening."  It's going beyond what you would consider practical.  Some of us do it because we have tools that can take that level of an edge, and very few Western knives made today can.  Some of us are just "sharp geeks" and do it because we can.  But among culinary professionals, some of us do it because a knife that's sharp beyond what you think makes sense allows us to things with food that you don't see very often.  We do sick stuff because we can.

[Rob Babcock]

BTW, I replaced my RE Tester with a Sharpie.  It works just as well and writes, too.  A multi-tasker!

[pjanda1]

I'm awfully happy with my Razor Edge kit on my Japanese knives (Hiromoto and Masahiro HC, Tojiro SS).  I used a mid-quality waterstone for awhile.  The Razor Edge coarse stone is very coarse, but it works for me.  I like the general method he advocates, but I don't really like the guide.  I just use the stones free hand, and am very pleased with the results.  The stones will probably travel with me over Christmas so I can get enough edge on families knives to be able to cook.  I thought I'd loose a finger trying to dice an onion on Thanksgiving!  May as well have been using a butter knife.

Paul

[Rob Babcock]

Very true!  I tend to travel with my work roll during the holidays if I have to cook.  Although most of my relatives and friends have at least one or two decent knives that are reasonably sharp...I see to that.

[Dan Driscoll]

BTW, the EP Apex 5 Kit that CKtG sells is a pretty good deal.

Hi Rob,

I can't seem to find that kit on the CKtG site and Googling only comes back with generic links to CktG, here and a knife forum.

[Rob Babcock]

BTW, the EP Apex 5 Kit that CKtG sells is a pretty good deal.

Hi Rob,

I can't seem to find that kit on the CKtG site and Googling only comes back with generic links to CktG, here and a knife forum.

Mark has temporarily taken it off the site.  The Shaptons are out of stock; he should have new ones in pretty shortly.  Presumably the Apex 5 will be back up as soon as the next batch of stones get to him.

[gonefishin]

    Hi Rob 


  I hope you can help me with another question.


   I'm thinking about getting a single bevel knife (yanagiba) and have read some conflicting advice on the internet regarding sharpening a single beveled knife on the Apex.


     I tried to visit the Knife Forums, but for some reason I get an error when I try to enter the  forum index.  The website also won't take my username/password. 

    Any thoughts?

   thanks,
  dan

[Rob Babcock]

KF has been down for the last six or eight hours for maintainance.  I'm just checking quick before running out the door but I'll be back in the evening and see what I can tell you.

[gonefishin]

   Well, for a nice slicer a may shy away from the yanaiba and look toward a (double beveled) sujihiki.  I'd still like carbon steel and something in the Japanese style (wooden handle etc). 

    I'm in no hurry...just doing my homework right now 

  dan

[Rob Babcock]

Well, the short answer is "yes" you can sharpen a yanagi on an Edge Pro.  There are those who say you can't and it can get contentious, but those who say you can't don't have EPs.   However, for most home users (even enthusiasts) a suji is probably a better choice.  It's more durable, more versatile and easier to sharpen.  "Opening" a yanagiba, (the process of flattening the blade road and sharpening it for the first time) can be a daunting task for someone not experienced with single beveled knives.  And while a yanagi is thin at the edge it's thick at the spine which means it will wedge when cutting veggies and such.  Really it's just a specialized knife made for slicing raw proteins, generally fish.  Not to discourage getting one- you'd probably have fun messing with it.  But it would be one of the last knives I'd recommend for after you have most of the other bases covered.

[Rob Babcock]

   Well, for a nice slicer a may shy away from the yanaiba and look toward a (double beveled) sujihiki.  I'd still like carbon steel and something in the Japanese style (wooden handle etc). 

How about something like this?  Although Moritaka calls this a "yanagiba", all their knives are double bevel, making this really more of a suji.  I got a chance to take part in a Moritaka passaround a while back; I got to use a 270mm Aogami Super gyuto for a week and a half at work.  Let me tell you, I was mighty impressed!  The knife is very thin and the geometry is great.  Aogami Super is one of the all around best carbon steels out there, IMO.  It takes an superb edge and holds it for a good long while.

[gonefishin]

   Rob, thanks again for sharing your thoughts!



    I'm surprised they call it a yanagiba.  But for my purposes it looks like it may just fit the bill quite well.  I really don't have a ton of money right now and the lower price point is attractive too. 

   thanks,
  dan