[stump4545]

decided to go with the H2-TL's now trying to decide on the front end.
was thinking of going with ultra 550 amp and van alstine pre amp and dac, but then i was thinking maybe i could go with a Jeff Rowland, Sim Audio, or Mark Levinson used intergrated amp.
what would you guys go with, a Van Alstine setup, or buy a primo intergrated that sells for $8g but buy it used for $4g.  (roughly the same price of an ultra and pre amp)

all things considered what would give me the best sound quality.

thanks for the opinions.

[Tone Depth]

With the Ultra gear, the majority of your money goes into the AVA sound quality.  There's also that AVA upgrade path, as technical improvements are developed, to upgrade your AVA equipment in the future.

With other manufacturer's used gear, part of your money goes into the appearance and hype, and a smaller proportion of your money goes into sound quality.

[Wayner]

Conceptually, I like the separates route for several reasons. The first offering is flexibility in component placement, keeping the amp away from things like turntables, tuners and preamps, as big amps have big transformers. Next is the ability to upgrade. If you need  more (or less) power because of a speaker upgrade, all you need is a new amp. If you choose AVA, then as previously stated, upgrades in the same chassis offer cost savings in the future. Also Frank's classic designs are timeless by design and do not follow fad or fashion, saving build cost that is pass down to the customer in more affordable bang for the buck hifi.

Wayner 

[floresjc]

Yah I would definitely go the separates route, better all around flexibility and choice for you down the road. Not to mention, you probly will get more power/headroom out of the Ultra 550 than the integrated?

Personally I'm not a huge electronics guy, power is power for the most part to me. I can't see myself ponying up 8K for a preamp/power, I don't think my entire custom 5.1 Salk setup cost 8K. When I go and listen to some of these big name electronics makers, I don't really hear that much a difference between them, and while they sound better than some of the more value brands, they aren't that much better nor would the difference be noticeable to me unless I was really paying attention (which I'm normally doing something while listening). Or, to take advantage of them to the fullest I'd have to have custom dedicated filtered circuits and $1k a foot cables and interconnects.

For myself, Frank's product line represents that invisible line of performance/dollar that I won't cross because I can't justify the marginal gains (if any) of going further up the cost chain based on my listening, and I would bet the same is true for many of the normal audiophiles out there. I've kind of relegated those botique brands to the "guys with too much money and it wouldn't matter if it were $20K" type of shoppers. In the end, its totally up to you, but I think the AVA setup you are looking at is truly top of the line, and the only reason to go elsewhere is you hear a significant difference in sound or you need some sort of functionality/stylish design he may not have in his system (like auto on etc).

[stump4545]

i hear you.
the only reason i was thinking of getting a primo $8k integrated Jeff Rowland etc, was to pick  one up used for say $4K, which is tempting because buying it at half, in my opinion saves me the $$ contributed to hype, dealer cost, aesthetics, and just plain mark up and probably gets me to what the product should sell for.

probably going to go with the van alstine gear because i do love the id model.
its just thinking about buying hi end gear like electronics and speakers at 1/2 price makes you wonder sometimes.

[coke]

I just received my ultra 550 amp and ultra SL preamp about a week ago and Jim is building me a pair of HT2-TLs.  I'm not sure what your time frame is, but i'll post a review when my speakers are finished.   The amp and preamp made a HUGE difference (i know this is vague) though with my Dynaudio contour s 1.4  when they replaced my Anthem MCA-50 amp and Integra 40.1 preamp.

Still saving up for a DAC.

[oneinthepipe]

Another nice thing about separates isn't just the ability to increase the amplifier's power, for example, but the flexibility to switch to entirely different components in the amplification chain, such as from a solid state preamp to a tube preamp. 

Regarding the 50% savings buying used, there are a lot of great deals on used equipment in relation to the MSRP.  With manufacturer-direct companies, the additional wholesaler, dealer, and advertising markup doesn't exist, and you are already saving the money off the top. 

What matters most, in my opinion, is the quality of the equipment and the quality of the sound in your system.  Not overspending is also a good thing.

Don't forget a DAC unless you plan to use analog sources exclusively or your CDP has outstanding analog output.

[DMurphy]

There's also the little issue of getting a warranty and not having to worry about whether the prior owner did weird stuff. 

[Wayner]

There's also the little issue of getting a warranty and not having to worry about whether the prior owner did weird stuff.

Amen to that.

Wayenr 

[mathgeek97]

BTW, I *heart* warrantees.
Now for a question I'd love to have answered, and I would guess that at least oneinthepipe could give an opinion.  For 2-channel music, what do you like better from Frank's offerings (with the HT2-TLs, if you've had the pleasure to listen to them), solid state, tube, or hybrid?  How about mix-and-match, for example, Insight DAC + T8 pre + Insight 240 amp?
I'm so not in love with my Denon, I figure I at least need a good DAC/Pre in the mix.
If it helps, I'm not interested in melting my brain from the volume...

[avahifi]

I think your suggestion of an Insight DAC, T8 preamp, and Insight 240 amp (compact chassis version) would be an excellent combination for the HT2TL speakers. 

Regards,

Frank

[stump4545]

how about a Insight Integrated Control Amplifier?
just as good for my setup?

[oneinthepipe]

BTW, I *heart* warrantees.
Now for a question I'd love to have answered, and I would guess that at least oneinthepipe could give an opinion.  For 2-channel music, what do you like better from Frank's offerings (with the HT2-TLs, if you've had the pleasure to listen to them), solid state, tube, or hybrid?  How about mix-and-match, for example, Insight DAC + T8 pre + Insight 240 amp?
I'm so not in love with my Denon, I figure I at least need a good DAC/Pre in the mix.
If it helps, I'm not interested in melting my brain from the volume...

The two "best" results from the various combinations of AVA gear with my HT2-TL, in my opinion, are either 1) the Insight DAC -> T8 preamp -> Insight 440 combination or 2) the T8 DAC-> Insight preamp -> U70 combination.  I would be happy with either of the two systems described above, but I am fortunate to have both.  A little switching of the speaker wires, and I have a different system.      Regardless, if I were only able to keep one set of components, I would hopefully keep the T8 preamp in the system.  I would also probably consider the Ultra DAC and an Ultra amp.  Otherwise, I would stick with the Insight DAC -> T8 preamp -> Insight amp.  However, if I had an Insight or another solid state preamp rather than the T8 preamp, I would definitely use the T8 DAC rather than the Insight DAC.  Just my $0.02.

Edit:

I am listing to Priscilla Ahn on the T8 DAC -> Insight SL -> U70 setup, and the music is incredibly detailed and "airy".  I love both setups, but the U70 amp is something else.  BTW, there is a great looking U70 on sale on the Trading Post for 850.00, which is a bargain, IMO, assuming that the amp doesn't have any issues, considering that the new UltraValve's introductory price is 1699.00.   

[oneinthepipe]

how about a Insight Integrated Control Amplifier?
just as good for my setup?

Same issue as with any manufacturer's integrated amp.  Your choices of amps and preamps is limited. Also, I am not sure what options are available with the Control Amplifier.  I think that the remote volume control is available, but I am not sure about phono, tape buffer, or bridge, if those matter.

[mathgeek97]

Frank and Oneinthepipe,
Thanks.  Insight DAC -> T8 preamp -> Insight amp sounds like it might be the winning combo for me.  I'd probably go with the 240 amp, unless something bigger and used is up for sale when I am ready to pull the trigger.
*crosses fingers for a bonus in the spring*

[nyc_paramedic]

I am a big fan of Pass Labs electronics. I admire not only the simplicity of his designs, but also his involvement in the DIY community. Many of his designs are available to enthusiast free of charge, and he is very active on diyaudio.com

Now -with this economy- you can snag one of his X series amps on Audiogon for a song.

Personally, I am an original owner (circa 1997) of a Pass Labs Aleph 5 amplifier. It's a class A single ended design; 60 watts into 8 Ohms, 90 into 4 Ohms. I was a bit concerned about it driving my HT2-TL's when I initially ordered them. After nearly 8 months with my HT2-TL's I am not wanting one bit in the watts department. The bass is articulate, tight and fast. Female vocals, horns, and wind instruments all make me drool and give me frequent goose bumps.

In the preamp department, it's partnered with and Pass Labs Aleph L preamp; passive until 3 o'clock on the volume knob; unity gain at 3 o'clock; class A, single ended gain after 3 o'clock. And no, with this passive preamp, the music is not "lifeless" or without dynamics. Impedance wise, these two work very well together.

Take a look-see here...

Pass Aleph 5: http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/old%20product%20manuals/a5man.pdf
Pass Aleph L: http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/old%20product%20manuals/alman.pdf

[revrob]

I have never used Van Alstine but I do have a LSA Signature Integrated amp paired with Salk HT3 and I have good to great sound with the combo. The LSA has 150 WPC and great reviews and while I like the combination I know that there is better sound out there.

I bought the Salks used that was paired with a Pass Labs XA 30.5 and Modwright preamp and that combo was magic. I am thinking about going with separates next year with some of the Pass gear - amp/ preamp. If I was to do it all over again I definitely would go with separates.

Good luck in your search.

[clipped]

Hi All,
I have all AVA electronics, so I am biased, sorry.

The 2 systems I use are: Songtowers along with AVA control amp and the sound is incredible. The price is even more incredible, approximately 3,500 for speakers and electronics, can't beat it. I also use Frank's DAC which adds just a little more quality to the overall sound and cost of course.

My main system is the seperate route, Ultra everything with the HT3's, the sound very incredible, the cost about 10K.

Bottom line; for the price point of Frank's gear there is no better way to go, new with upgrade path and 30 day money back policy, makes most sense.
Jim and Frank use each other's equipement for many reasons, perhaps talk to them and get their expert opinions.
I did and I am very pleased.