[Quiet Earth]

Funny thing this master set procedure. I understand the end result, but I can't get there using the one speaker at a time method.

I had trouble hearing what I'm supposed to hear when I listened to the first single speaker. I never heard a magic spot. The set up procedure is so vague yet so fractionally precise at the same time. "Smoothest bass" leaves so much up to interpretation yet only an eighth of an inch determines whether or not you're in focus of something that you have never heard before. Something that you will believe once you hear. How can I focus the second lens if I don't know exactly where the first one is supposed to be?

Also, have you ever focussed both lenses one lens at a time, and then later defocused the first lens because your eyes work differently together instead of one at a time? I do that all the time when I use binoculars. Or a microscope.

I think I'm getting near mater set results over here, but I don't think I will ever get it exactly as described. I'll keep trying though.

[dcstep]

Finding the bass sweet spot requires moving in very small increments.

It IS really hard if you've never seen anyone else do it. You'll never find the sweet spot if you're hearing both speakers at once, at least in the beginning.

Dave

[stvnharr]

Funny thing this master set procedure. I understand the end result, but I can't get there using the one speaker at a time method.

I had trouble hearing what I'm supposed to hear when I listened to the first single speaker. I never heard a magic spot. The set up procedure is so vague yet so fractionally precise at the same time. "Smoothest bass" leaves so much up to interpretation yet only an eighth of an inch determines whether or not you're in focus of something that you have never heard before. Something that you will believe once you hear. How can I focus the second lens if I don't know exactly where the first one is supposed to be?

Also, have you ever focussed both lenses one lens at a time, and then later defocused the first lens because your eyes work differently together instead of one at a time? I do that all the time when I use binoculars. Or a microscope.

I think I'm getting near mater set results over here, but I don't think I will ever get it exactly as described. I'll keep trying though.

QE,
I never ever said that it was easy to do in a diy fashion.  I believe I have written about some of the points you have raised, but never hurts to go thru some things again in the hope that it helps.

Setting the anchor:  Well, there is NO magic spot.  The term "smoothest bass" is as much as I ever had to go on, and it's not much.  But like so much of audio, it's a relative term, rather than a reference term.  There have been times when I have not been able to discern a difference or find a spot of "smoothest bass".  However, I have had better luck since I got the Duos version of Ballad of a Runaway Horse.  I've found that you just have to listen to the first couple verses a few times in the first spot where you get all the music to the one speaker, and then note which notes seem louder, plucked harder, or something, and then just use that as a reference as you move the speaker in the small increments and listen.  Sometimes if you can't discern ANY difference, well, you just pick a spot and set the speaker anyway.  Or you can stop and come back to it all a couple hours later and try again.
One thing that I now do in setting the anchor is to point the speaker that stays against the wall to be 45 degrees away rather than just straight ahead.  This seems to make it a bit easier to hear the speaker that you want to set as an anchor.

Matching: I've rarely been able to match the second speaker using a "smoothest bass" reference.  I did so once, and I guess I was just lucky that day.  I now tend to go for the balance of sound across the room.  There is only a small matching window where the sound stays stable as you move around the room.

One speaker at a time:  When you set the "anchor" you have the speaker in a small zone where all the sound, with both speakers playing, will seem to come from just the one speaker.  If you move the speaker too far out into the room, the sound will again center itself.  But in this small zone, you can set the speaker and it's response will not change when you move the other one to match.  Sorry if I can't explain that any better.

Lastly, I think after Laura gets her speakers set, she may be able to help with some of this, as she will likely be a very active participant in doing everything.

[jhm731]

"I got the Duos version of Ballad of a Runaway Horse"

It's "Duets."

Did you know "Duets" is a HDCD recording? If you don't have an HDCD playback system, there will be audible compression of peaks.

For the non MS people reading this thread, here's another good speaker placement link:

http://www.greenmountainaudio.com/how-to-place-speakers/

You could also download a Wilson Audio owners manual and follow their
set up procedure, here's the Sophia manual:

http://www.wilsonaudio.com/downloads/manuals/sophia_2_manual.pdf

[dcstep]

That Wilson manual describes a bunch of problems and suggests some treatments, but it won't optimize the speakers in a room.

Maybe that's why I've never heard a good Wilson demo. I wonder... I keep thinking that they HAVE TO sound better in real systems. Their show setups at the last RMAF really sucked big time.

[jhm731]

That Wilson manual describes a bunch of problems and suggests some treatments, but it won't optimize the speakers in a room.

Maybe that's why I've never heard a good Wilson demo. I wonder... I keep thinking that they HAVE TO sound better in real systems. Their show setups at the last RMAF really sucked big time.

I guess you're use to hearing the colorations from all that furniture you have in your listening room.

You should read Art Dudley's article about the Sophia 2s in the 2/10 Stereophile.

[vinyl_guy]

Ok, Steve, nicely put.

Laura-  Hi.  Have a conversation with Rod in the manner described where your speakers are presently, then, in the same place as you two were sitting before, have it again once Rod has set your speakers.  I think Steve is saying that you can't do that or not as easily.  I imagine Steve wouldn't be saying that if he hadn't already done this himself more than once.  It sounds like it would be relevant to the clarity of the music, but is it really I'm wondering.

Hi Jim,

I will do that. I really like what I am hearing out of my system right now. I have the current speaker postion marked. I want to do some listening and talking with Rod before Rod starts the Master Set process so I have good reference point to compare with the final Master Set position. I'm in Colorado now and I plan to see Rod in his store on Monday.

Laura

[dcstep]

I guess you're use to hearing the colorations from all that furniture you have in your listening room.

You should read Art Dudley's article about the Sophia 2s in the 2/10 Stereophile.

What does my furniture have to do with placing other peoples' speakers? With the Master Set the speakers are set in the room, with the furniture in place in the listening position. If a piece of furniture is causing a problem, then it may be moved or removed, but you start with the room as you'd expect it to be used.

I end up listening to lots of systems in lots of rooms, so the experience is useful in judging neutrality.

Goodness, so now you're saying that I should read Art Dudley. That's pathetic.  There's hardly a piece in his system that I haven't heard for myself. He's from another planet. Now that he's reduced his leftist pontification, I enjoy reading him, but I doubt that I'll ever buy a piece of equipment on his advice.

I sat right by Peter McGrath as he demoed the Sophias at RMAF. There were big problems, to say the least.

Dave

[jhm731]

What does my furniture have to do with placing other peoples' speakers? With the Master Set the speakers are set in the room, with the furniture in place in the listening position. If a piece of furniture is causing a problem, then it may be moved or removed, but you start with the room as you'd expect it to be used.

I end up listening to lots of systems in lots of rooms, so the experience is useful in judging neutrality.

Goodness, so now you're saying that I should read Art Dudley. That's pathetic.  There's hardly a piece in his system that I haven't heard for myself. He's from another planet. Now that he's reduced his leftist pontification, I enjoy reading him, but I doubt that I'll ever buy a piece of equipment on his advice.

I sat right by Peter McGrath as he demoed the Sophias at RMAF. There were big problems, to say the least.

Dave

Folks this is Dave/dcstep listening room:



Do you think that hugh piece of furniture between this speakers or that table between the speakers and the listening position could cause any refections that might effect the imaging or frequency balance? :

[dcstep]

  you can move that piece, and I have, and it makes no difference.

Those speakers are in a Master Set position and are a great example of something that really works and follows no "apparent" classic formula. Once you realize how irregular the room is then it starts making some sense. (There's a long wall to the left that Rod really wanted to use, but my wife restricted him to this end). Anyway, the Master Set balances the speakers' energy and frequency response, almost totally removing IM. It's easy to see that there'll be no issues with side wall reflection and comb effects, such that this setup can be enjoyed from any place in front of the speakers. There IS a sweet spot, but doesn't fall apart as you move to other positions.

Dave

[Nyal Mellor]

This whole ms thing is beginning to take on a 'cult' like form.

There is >some< science in what is being done, but please this is the acoustics forum. Do not suggest that you can make significant changes to bass response with movements of fractions of an inch.

There is no magic formula or silver bullet, rather there is a rationale scientific understanding of the issues with a listening room and using these to improve sound.

And as for whoever did that setup with the speakers about 5ft apart and with a massive table in the direct path from the left speaker...

[J. Royce Baron]

Today I dedicated three hours plus to find the elusive 'non sweet spot' with the Maggie’s.

Setting the anchor to decouple from the other speaker was not a problem and came in at 3’ from front wall.

Setting the second speaker to the anchor wasn’t that difficult either it was achieved at 29” from front wall this gave a good center image from the LP.

To simplify I was not looking for smooth bass and used the male voice intro from ‘Chesky’s Ultimate Demonstration Disc’ and eventually might work my way up to Rebecca Pidgeon’s Spanish Harlem.

Sad to report, the speakers never disappeared always revealed themselves in the usual manner when shifting left to right from the chair or anywhere else the sweet spot remained the same.

Perhaps the space here is not ideal where the left speaker is 3’ from side wall and right is 12’ from the right wall.

My assistant and I followed instructions pretty well and moves were miniscule.

I haven’t given up but I’m open for suggestions on the room and application.

[dcstep]

You guys are really missing out here. You should notice where the walls begin and end, where the opennings are, the placement of the armoire, heavily stuffed furniture, etc. All of that has a impact on speaker placement and response.

How can anyone sit there and simply by looking at the picture tell how my system will sound?? I've moved the table in and out of that placement and it does not make a bit of difference. You "experts" don't know what you're talking about, because you can't hear it. I suspected it'd be a problem, but then tested and it proved not to be. You scientific method guys should understand that.

It's simple enough to take your speakers back to the wall, aim the right one out 45-degrees then move the left one out an inch or so at a time. Listen to the bass and you'll hear a difference quite easily. There's nothing cultish about that. Just get off your ass and try it. Really, it's that simple. Don't talk "scientific method" and then not practice it yourself.

Dave

[dcstep]

Royce, with true dipoles I think the process is much complicated. I don't know your Maggies, but many dipoles that I've heard beamed a lot and, if your speakers share that characteristic, then it'll be hard to get out of the sweet spot. I've only heard the MS done with speakers with wide dispersion.

Maybe someone's seen it done with dipoles and contribute, but I'm not sure what else you can do.

Dave

[jimdgoulding]

Dave, love your armoire!

[dcstep]

Dave, love your armoire!

Thank you. It's worked out very nicely, effectively holding and hiding all my equipment while looking good.

Dave

[stvnharr]

This whole ms thing is beginning to take on a 'cult' like form.

There is >some< science in what is being done, but please this is the acoustics forum. Do not suggest that you can make significant changes to bass response with movements of fractions of an inch.

There is no magic formula or silver bullet, rather there is a rationale scientific understanding of the issues with a listening room and using these to improve sound.

And as for whoever did that setup with the speakers about 5ft apart and with a massive table in the direct path from the left speaker...

Nyal,
Geezus, cultists eh.  How funny!!!
You are overstating the bass response issue.  Finding the "smoothest bass" is not the same thing as trying to make significant changes to bass response, as you are suggesting.

Also, I thought you were going to give things a go a month or so ago.  You've spent some time writing, though not near as much as some others, and it really isn't all that hard or time consuming to give things a go. What the hell do you have to lose?????  It's just speaker setup and music.

Yes, this is an acoustics forum, but the thread is about the Cardas setup and someone mentioned Master Set, and I chimed in some time ago.

Steve

PS. BTW, I'm not the one writing negative things about what other people do, and have no desire to do so.  It's just speaker setup and music.

[J. Royce Baron]

Thank you Dave ... I believe Steve inquired re dipoles and was assured from the Master himself that it made no difference since MS works on all speakers.

Steve ... what say you?

[jimdgoulding]

You kinda do sound like a cultist, Stevie.  Like a man who has met a guru.  I know MS makes sense to you in what you hear in your bass reproduction.  I think the resistance here may be your saying that you have 3D reproduction (to me) and your not responding to the measurements that Aloha Dan posted earlier with his two way speakers nearer his front wall.  You're gettin some dimensionality to nearfield images alright, but you ain't gettin the depth of field and information about a hall or site that I'm gettin unless the relationship of waveform distribution and our rooms is irrelevant.  Don't think it is myself.  Certainly where recordings contain this information.

Hey, I had some electrostats in my smallish room and the low end of a Bosendorfer would kill you it was so sensual (cause the low end was elevated).  So, I'm not in aesthetic argument about near wall placement, just big picture argument.  Rockin Dave (with the beautiful room and armoire) is a horse of a different color.  He doesn't have perpendicular walls to begin with.  His case is different from ours, tho given license, I think I could improve his realism over a wider range of recordings (and your wife's, of course, D).

How sound waveforms enter and interact with a room is big stuff, IME. 

By the way, Cardas is just a starting point for me.  At the end of the day, my speakers are nearer the front wall than his calculations (but further out than yours) and further away from my side walls.  Guys come to my house and freak when they see my triangle.  Until they close their eyes.  Girls, too.

Come to think of it, formulas are fertile ground for resistance by individualists.  Myself included.

J Royce, dude, planars are more directional than dynamic drivers.  Best you can hope for is to coalease your backwave with your directional front wave by integrating the wall behind them.  Those tall, round acoustic things placed behind your Maggie's can help you tailor the sound (I can't think of the name of them, sorry), this I have heard for myself.  Don't suppose you would be any more freaked out than the rest of us.

[jimdgoulding]

Sorry, but I think this doesn't make any sense.
The sound of music in a venue is the sound of music as it is played in real time. How do you get more focused and detailed than that?  Now if you want to say that your listening room is better than any venue, then........
that's another matter entirely.

Oh, man, what's up with that reply?  In the first place, we're talkin REPRODUCTION of real time.  If your speakers aren't placed respectfully, and for that matter, aren't designed respectfully, you ain't gettin real time.