[Aether Audio]

Hello Everybody!

In response to the overwhelming interest that has been displayed on the Religious Discussions thread, I would like to examine what I perceive to be the underlying issue of this ongoing debate.  Although I believe all ideas have merit and discussion stimulates the mind, at the end of the day, the result resembles a puppy chasing its tail.  The nature of existence IS humanity’s greatest mystery and has been the source of endless debate and conflict throughout history.  I make no pretense of answering those endless questions in the following nor do I suppose myself to be a guru in the understanding of reality per se.  The following is nothing more than the musings of an eternally curious man’s quest for understanding.  So without further ado, let’s see if we can peel back the skin of that onion and get to the core.  Hopefully we will find truth waiting there.

What Is Reality?
Reality is a function of your perception.  Perception is a process of consciousness.  These truths are obvious to all.  The debate resides in the differences between one individual’s perception, the perceptions of a group and the perception of all conscious entities combined.

At one end of the spectrum we have the perception of one individual.  For him or her, their reality is all that matters.  If we should suppose that there is no afterlife and at death consciousness “turns off” like a light switch, then at the moment of death the universe ceases to exist for that individual.  You could say, “no, that individual ceases to exist.”   But to that individual, while they were alive their very consciousness was, by default, a necessary part of the universe that they perceived, being required in order to perceive it and self.  They were intrinsically “bound” together, so to speak. When they died, it died also.  So for them and for all intents and purposes, the universe no longer exists.  We can say then, that for the 6 billion or so residents of this planet, there are no less than an equivalent number of realities.

Somewhere in the middle of this spectrum we have the perception of a group of individuals.  Their numbers matter not, so long as they are more than the one and less than the whole.  To them, an agreed upon reality exists, albeit, the degree of agreement may be greater or lesser.  An example may be that “Republicans believe in conservative government.”  Some may agree to this statement strongly while others to a lesser degree, yet they all agree to some general degree.

Then there are the perceptions of the whole (if there is such a thing).  An example would be that we all believe the earth exhibits the property of gravity and that water is wet.  To the degree that an individual or group departs from the perceptions of the whole or even the majority, to that same degree we assign a level of “madness.”

In all of this, we can come to visualize some sort of underlying unity of perception that, upon any given instance, can be either tightly bound or so loosely bound as to be almost imperceptible itself.  Depending on the degree of “madness” that an individual or group is assigned, we are known to say that that person or group “lives in their own private universe.”

If we were to assign a metaphorical representation of this underlying unity, we could visualize it as a sort of “framework” or “matrix.”  This “matrix” would consist of “nodes” with each node representing an individual’s perception of reality.  These nodes would interconnect with others by “lines of agreed upon perception,” wherein each node or person would be connected to every other, either very closely and strong or very distant and weak, determined by the degree to which they agree upon the nature of any given issue or purported fact.  This “degree of agreement” has the potential to extend to every facet of existence, but in our present reality this is obviously far from the case.

So now we have what I choose to call a “Universal Perception Matrix.”  This matrix can be visualized to a fairly accurate degree by comparing it to the X-Ray diffraction pattern of atoms aligned within a crystalline structure.  Each atom is strongly bound to the ones closest to it and to ones further away to a lesser and lesser degree.  This analogy has a certain weakness in that one can say that any atom that is not directly connected to one residing next to itself is not really connected to the others.  In the Universal perception Matrix, all nodes do connect to all others to some degree as long as any given node actually resides within the universe, whatever its limits.  I admit this failing of the model but it is as close as I can come up with.

Stepping back to look at the bigger picture, we can see that we are all bound together through the processes of consciousness and perception.  If we are determined to be insane, the link is weak except with regards to others of like madness.  If we are sane, a stronger bond of universal perception binds us to others.  What becomes apparent is that the unifying force involved is consciousness itself.  We are by default; animate matter possessing self-awareness while perceiving others of similar perception and in-animate matter as well.  All of this is self evident but not necessarily obvious.

The great question is simply this: What is the origin and nature of consciousness?  Further; what would become of the physical universe (in-animate matter) if every living organism that possesses any form of consciousness were to be extinguished, or better yet, to never have existed nor ever will?  Would the universe (planets, stars, etc.) cease to exist?  Logic and reason says that this can’t possibly be true.  We know that matter possesses an intrinsic form of existence.  But if there is no observer to perceive it, nor has there ever been nor ever will be one (one is all that is required), what form does this existence take?  If there is no observer, what vocabulary can we use to describe the existence of anything if the very definition of reality lies in the process of perception!

It seems that we have come to a dead end.  We know that the universe would exist without us but such existence has no meaning.  It cannot be discussed except hypothetically and even that process requires consciousness on the part of the participants.  We can’t make ourselves go away and then talk about what it would be like if we weren’t here!

I would suggest that the universe requires and in fact, does possess, at least one primary observer.  This observer is the source of all consciousness throughout this same universe and is the very Author of the Universal Perception Matrix.  This same Author created the matrix by extending consciousness to individual “nodes” or members of the matrix.  The Author’s divine nature was to extend such consciousness to the individual nodes as an extension of His own, as opposed to a distinctly separate form for each.  The nature of this consciousness is identical to His own, but endowed with a unique identity and freedom of thought that is rooted in an identical form of creativity and free will.  

In essence we are His children and He is God.  And the consciousness extended to us by this “God” is the root of collective agreement concerning the nature of reality wherein such agreement exists.  In matters of disagreement, such disagreements originate within the individual node or nodes that, through isolated thought processes, freely disassociate themselves and their own thought processes from the Universal Mind that is the source of all consciousness and unity.

So…if you disagree with me, either I’m wrong or you’re wrong or we’re both wrong.  How can we know the truth of the matter?  If we can find a way to “tap into” the Universal Mind of God, then we can know within ourselves what truth is.  But seeing that we are each an individual node within the matrix and not the source, we cannot directly transfer that knowledge.  This is because knowledge that defines “understanding” in any form actually only stimulates an experience to take place within the realm and processes of our minds.  We cannot transfer an experience, only information about an experience.  

All communication is a process of transformation of information about an experience.  It is not a transformation of the experience itself.  Playback of a musical recording is a transformation of information.  It is not the original musical experience.  Information has the potential to initiate an experience though.  A very good sound system and recording can “stimulate” an experience resembling the original, but the actual process takes place in the mind. Also, all language is metaphor, it is not the “thing” itself.  Language can “lead” a person to an experience but cannot directly generate one.  

If an experience directly relates to the physical realm, that in a way is considered to be of a more “common” nature, the ability of communication to stimulate an experience in another person has a greater likelihood of success.  If I tell you that it’s 20 below zero outside my house and you have experienced cold weather before, you may “shudder at the thought of it.”  If I tell you God spoke to me last night, you’re very likely to think I’m crazy.  That’s because matters of spirit, by default, are not directly associated to the more common experiences of the physical universe.  Therefore, I cannot stimulate in you the “understanding” of my experience through simple communication.  

Such experience lies beyond the “natural” world that is common to all.  If you know that I am a reasonable person though, you may begin to wonder if such an experience is possible for you.  Again, I cannot make you “hear” God’s voice, but you may be able to find a way to hear Him for yourself.  Your decision to try is based partially on my ability to communicate to you or “convince you” that my experience was real.  The other part of that decision is based on your willingness to accept what I have communicated as being my experience of  “truth.”  If you should choose not to do that, then any effort on my part will be of no consequence.  Even if you do, the experience is yours alone.  If you hear God’s voice it is not my doing, if you do not, I could not have been the one to prevent it.

To sum up, your reality is yours alone, but you are not alone in reality.  If you find truth it belongs to you, but you can share it without suffering loss.  If you think you know something then maybe you do, but you can’t directly prove it to me if I’m not listening.  Then again, I can’t remove it from your mind either.  What we can do is let go of our opinions and search for truth together.  If we are of like spirit in that regard, we will grow and know together.

 -Bob

[Marbles]

OK,

I'm willing to grow and know.

I would love to hear from a diety, but so far I have nothing to share with you(sorry about that).

What do you have for me?

[infiniti driver]

One analogy is that of a dream. Do you know if you are going to dream tonight when you sleep? Do you know what you are going to dream about? Can you change your dream to any outcome you would like at any time during the dream?

God speaks to people in different ways. An example is...have you ever driven down a highway and got a really nasty vibe...and instantly decided to turn off and find a coffee shop, sit and have a cup, get back in your car and see a horrible accident that happened about 10 mins before and based on the clock...it would have been -very likely- it could have been you? Have you been presented with a problem and simply let it go in frustration and gave up..to have the answer right in front of you the next day?

Have you ever asked for the seemingly impossible and have your wishes granted? Ever?

This perception is a form of universal consciousness that takes place in the sub-conscious.

God is not there to grant wishes. He is there for you to tap into. The more a person believes, the more tapping into type perception that person develops. I firmly believe it is not something we are doing strickly...on our own and right now, I can't prove it one way or another but I have faith that this is a gift from God.

[Marbles]

One analogy is that of a dream. Do you know if you are going to dream tonight when you sleep? Do you know what you are going to dream about? Can you change your dream to any outcome you would like at any time during the dream?

no to all the above

God speaks to people in different ways. An example is...have you ever driven down a highway and got a really nasty vibe...and instantly decided to turn off and find a coffee shop, sit and have a cup, get back in your car and see a horrible accident that happened about 10 mins before and based on the clock...it would have been -very likely- it could have been you?

no

Have you been presented with a problem and simply let it go in frustration and gave up..to have the answer right in front of you the next day?

sure

Have you ever asked for the seemingly impossible and have your wishes granted? Ever?

This perception is a form of universal consciousness that takes place in the sub-conscious.

God is not there to grant wishes. He is there for you to tap into. The more a person believes, the more tapping into type perception that person develops. I firmly believe it is not something we are doing strickly...on our own and right now, I can't prove it one way or another but I have faith that this is a gift from God....

Well if it were truely impossible, then no I wouldn't wish for it.  If it were remotely possible, then yes I have and occaisionaly it has been.  My ego is not so big as to presume God had nothing better to do than to grant this wish though.

It's like a football game.  People come off the field and thank god for the victory.  Does he really have nothing better to do than make sure one team wins?  Forget the kid who steps on the land mine, we have a game to win  

What you are talking about so far is a "6th sense" that man has been nurturing since he has walked the earth.  This has let him survive for as long as we have.

Is this God talking to us?  I don't think so.  If you think it is, then maybe our perceptions of God is different.

[rosconey]

yada yada yada

[infiniti driver]

God is omnipresent. Remember when I stated that it was personal? God gives power to those who ask for it. God is your personal God. He does not weigh one item as more important than another. If certain members of a football team do pray and ask for devine guidance before, during and after a football game, they can still lose the game. It is not a magic silver bullett. On the other hand, faith that God will be there with you to help you do your very best will assure at least...that you did your very best and I don't believe for a second that this will impede progress in what you set out to do.

No one actually knows WHAT is truly impossible! In the realm of history, mankind has achieved things that were "seemingly" impossible for many thousands of years. Did God have a hand in it? Did he deem us "ready" for the advancement?

The problem of personal experiences and testimonies involving faith is that no one can prove them right or wrong as Bob eloquently pointed out.
The very essense of FAITH is what YOU believe it, based on your personal experiences and observations. I have heard so many people say.." I gave Christianity a try, and I could not measure up" The fact is I have heard every excuse in the book.

One:

"Well I like all my friends at the bar and I don't want to give that scene and those friends up."

Really? What have they done for you lately?

Another:

"The Christian lifestyle is not my bag."


I have always wondered what the Christian lifestyle is. It is not about walking around holier than thou. It is not about not missing Church. It is not about standing on the street corners yelling at cars with the bible in your hand. It is not about anything that any man tells you about. It is ONLY about your personal relationship with God.

The only reason I do sit here and type it is because I see a thurst...I mean a REAL Thurst, to hear it from fellow folks who share the same intrests (audio, music, jamming on the speakers and enjoying the audio) and gain some sort of understanding where their head is at on the matter and that the gift I have is something TO BE SHARED.

I also believe that anyone that wants to ultimately gain the knowledge do so in private. Do it yourself. DIY. It simply is nice to hear from others that they want to share what their relationship is..but also I cannot expect to give anyone any answers other than I accepted Jesus as my Lord and saviour and my Life since then has been completly changed and I dare not go back to what I once was and once became. That life was not meaningful to me nor was it meaningful to others. Since my acceptance, the entire World has opened up to endless possibilities.

[nathanm]

Tonight I am going to pray to my personal god to grant me the power to fly by merely flapping my arms.  I want to sell my car and be able to fly to where I want to go.  This is not a wish, but a fervent prayer of course.  And as we know, God grants power to those who ask for it.  So all you gotta do is ask folks, the world's your oyster.  How fabulous.

[infiniti driver]

That prayer has already been answered. Wilbur and Orville flapped their arms around a bicycle shop enough around tooling , pencils and testings that Man took flight without having to actually flap their arms. This lead to more arm flapping in the way of 12 OZ curls and then more improved aeroplanes evolved. Next more flapping in need of faster and larger planes took root, and now we live in the age of flight where over 120million people fly per year.

I do think God would urge you to get a plane ticket.

Christian Joke:

A man was canoeing down a river when suddenly he notices that all his buddys were no longer behind him. Having been hasty to finish first, this guy took a wrong turn and was heading for a tremendious waterfall. Being a devout Christian, he grabbed the nearest limb and held on for dear life as the currents were too strong for him to take the last fork in the river down a creek. Close, but actually the limb was very close to the fork and maybe he could swing himself free.

He then thanked God for providing him with this fabulous tree which he is grasping and spared his life! Well after about 20 mins. of trying to swing himself far enough to reach the bank, all looked in vain. About that time two canoers were rowing and saw him clinging to the tree branch and yelled out...Grab an Oar!!! And he said, no...you go on the current is too swift, God will save me....and about that time, the limb broke and down the 100 foot waterfall he goes, limb and all and the next thing he knows, he is facing St Peter.

St Peter says, well...I see you are here....and yep, there you are in the book...you can go explain yourself to God now...


So........


God, I have been to Church every Sunday, I have worshipped you every day....how could you have let me go crashing down that waterfall and not save me....why..WHY!!!??????


Gods Response:

I sent you not one, but TWO canoes.

[nathanm]

Complete balderdash!  

So it sounds like God only grants prayers which can be easily explained by science, physics, natural phenomenon and mere coincidence, eh?  God only grants prayers based on the limits of technologies which man has invented?  How convenient for him.  What an excellent way to get us to believe he is an omnipotent being.  My prayer was not the power to build an airplane, it was the power to fly, by myself, using my own arms.  I want to grow wings from my back, allright?  God can handle that can't he?

[Sa-dono]

One analogy is that of a dream. Do you know if you are going to dream tonight when you sleep?

Yes..because this has already been proven through science and physiology.

And I agree with Marbles. You are just talking about a 6th Sense, intuition, hunch, etc. There is something called human survival and instincts after all.

[Sa-dono]

It is not about standing on the street corners yelling at cars with the bible in your hand. It is not about anything that any man tells you about. It is ONLY about your personal relationship with God.

You are contradicting yourself now. Would you have a relationship with God, or believe in God, had you not been told about or read about God? Likely not.

It would be interesting for all churches to be burnt down and abandoned, all people to no longer talk or read about God, and no one telling their children about God. Would people still believe and worship God privately? If it is only about a personal relationship with God, then many relgions and  all churches would not be needed, as God would reveal himself to everyone. When that day happens, then that would be proof of God's omnipresence and power. I shall pray for this too, as this is certainly not impoossible, given God's great grace and might.

[JLM]

Belief in God requires faith, it cannot be proven under the current circumstances.

[tom1356]

Belief in God requires faith, it cannot be proven under the current circumstances.

And faith requires a complete lack of logic.

[JohnR]

I don't believe that's true. I think one can choose a framework, if you like, within which one constructs one's own beliefs. A statement such as "a complete lack of logic" arises only when one framework is viewed from within the confines of another. I personally don't choose a theistic framework, but that's because they do not have meaning to me personally, not because of lack of "logic" or "proof."

[jfreeman373]

If you had no faith that you could go to college and get a degree, why would a person bother trying?  Having faith that you can pass those clases without proof beforehand that you can do it is by default faith.  

I'm sorry but a lack of faith must  mean you have zero hope for the future.  To me having no hope for your own life is very illogical to me.  Why bother breathing another moment when you have no proof that you will continue breathing or anything else in the future for that matter. The only person that can exist without faith are the rotting corpses in the graveyard.  They have no faith OR logic.

[tom1356]

I don't believe that's true. I think one can choose a framework, if you like, within which one constructs one's own beliefs. A statement such as "a complete lack of logic" arises only when one framework is viewed from within the confines of another. I personally don't choose a theistic framework, but that's because they do not have meaning to me personally, not because of lack of "logic" or "proof."

Either you believe or you don't. (To be honest I'm not sure I know where you stand from the post quoted.)
I don't know who the "one" you refer to is, or what the framework that you speak of is.
If you don't think it's illogical to believe in an imaginary man in the sky who controls things than that’s fine. It doesn’t change the fact that it is illogical.
It's very comforting to be able to shirk personal responsibility and defer to a higher power. So I do see the appeal of religions.
I just know it's all a scam. I might even grant you that society is, in general, served by this scam by keeping some people on the straight and narrow.

[tom1356]

If you had no faith that you could go to college and get a degree, why would a person bother trying?  Having faith that you can pass those clases without proof beforehand that you can do it is by default faith.  

I'm sorry but a lack of faith must  mean you have zero hope for the future.  To me having no hope for your own life is very illogical to me.  Why bother breathing another moment when you have no proof that you will continue breathing or anything else in the future for that matter. The only perso ...

I should have known in a religious discussion I would need to spell everything out.
I guess I assumed you would understand my use of the word faith in a religious context would mean religious faith.
I am man enough to admit I was wrong about that.
I do have faith that someone will reply with a totally superfluous set of remarks to drag this whole thing way of topic.

[JohnR]

I don't know who the "one" you refer to is.

"One" is English grammar. Let me rephrase: I think you can choose a framework, if you like, within which you construct your own beliefs.

If you don't think it's illogical to believe in an imaginary man in the sky who controls things than that’s fine. It doesn’t change the fact that it is illogical.

I don't think you understand my point. To you, it may be illogical, but that's only because you can't step outside of your own belief system to see that there are others in which it is not.

It's very comforting to be able to shirk personal responsibility and defer to a higher power.

Similarly, it must be very comforting for you to reinforce your own belief system by trivalizing those of others.

Cheerio

[jfreeman373]

I should have known in a religious discussion I would need to spell everything out.
I guess I assumed you would understand my use of the word faith in a religious context would mean religious faith.
I am man enough to admit I was wrong about that.
I do have faith that someone will reply with a totally superfluous set of remarks to drag this whole thing way of topic.

I'm not off topic at all.  They are one and the same.  They are just at different levels. Look at it like this for a second.  At the infinately small we have electrons revolving around the nucleous of an atom.  In space the planets revolve around the sun. Greater than that we have stars revolving around the center of galaxies, and galaxies circling around other galaxies.  The same concept... only one is at the micro level and the other is at the macro.  Faith is a universal truth from the smallest form we can think. Kind of like having faith that you will pee after you drink a beer to having faith that you will reach some career goal someday, and all the way to having faith that you can tap into the power of the infinte to transform your destiny from that which society would lay at your feet and say you must become and believe.

[Rob Babcock]

I think whether or not God exists, we'd probably need him/it, or at least think we do badly enough to create him.  Unfortunately, I don't think we're evolved enough as a species to do the right thing simply because we know it's right; many of our mores need to appeal to a higher authority to coerce us unto obeying them.

Many years ago I believed that Science as God would eventually kill off religion.  After all, we know why the sun crosses the sky, so we don't need Apollo.  We know the Earth revolves around it in an eliptical orbit, so we don't need Atlas to carry it anymore.  But no matter how much we've learned about the universe, in the end we all die.  And that's the last place God can take refuge and hide:  Death.  That's one area we may never understand, let alone conquer.  And as long as man is mortal, I believe we'll always have God in some form or another.