[StereoNut]

I realize there are a gazillion variables to be considered, but... I am curious to how all of the VS VR-4_Gen.III owners out there have their speakers placed within their rooms and if you use any toe-in with them???

My room is 16' deep x 28' wide, with a 9' ceiling.  My VR-4's are somewhat centered on the front wall of that 28' wide dimension. The speakers are spaced 9' apart, on center with the front edge of each about 4' from the wall behind them. (I keep my rear firing tweeters dialed down quite a bit to around 9 o'clock position because of this.)  My right speaker is about 7' from right wall, the left speaker is about 10' from the left wall.  Listening position is on center to the speakers, about 9-10' away. The biggest problems are two doorways.  There's a doorway to the far right front corner of the room behind the right speaker (at least there is a door that can be closed there) and an archway to the far left front corner of the room behind the left speaker, that's open.

Please don't tell me how the room was designed like crap for my system or that I should re-arrange the system to be on the shorter (16') dimension wall etc... because that's not gonna help me here! I have to work within the available space, utilizing this configuration for the most part because I need to maintain enough space in and around the room for it to be "livable" in, including the furniture and access to the adjoining rooms via those doorways.   My only other alternative is to remove the "room equation" completely when I first move the VR-4's further out into the room for better sound (like I know many of you will suggest) and my wife then moves me and the VR-4's all the way into the back yard when she see them!!! 

Thanks for whatever insight you guys and gals can give me on this.
SN

[McTwins]

Hi
I am using a little toe-in and have my left and right speakers excatly the same from the side walls. But I also place my speakers 1/4 off the room lenght and width. You seem to have a very good room ratio, that's good.
Thanks

[StereoNut]

Thanks, McT!

Someone mentioned the "Cardas Rule" to me.
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=room+setup

Problem is that my room "sets-up" the opposite way.   That is, my speakers are set against the LONG dimension of my room.  So the diagram on the Cardas website would need to be rotated 90 degrees to match my room!  Now what?

SN

[SundayNiagara]

This, and the other ongoing speaker placement thread just boggles my mind!

[McTwins]

Hi
I have tried with the Cardas setup myself and it's not so bad afterall, but it didin't helpt me about the room modes problems I had. I don't have any other way as in this setup I have now to put my speakers in some differen't position. I have mine on the shortest lenght. The best is if the left and the right wall is exactly symmerical, very important for the soundstage. The speakers that is in my TV-corner is not the best solution, but the sound is accapteble.
thanks   

[SundayNiagara]

Has this problem been solved?

[StereoNut]

SundayNiagra

Has your problem been solved???

If this thread or any other one on AC happens to bother, confuse, perplex or annoy you etc...  I have a simple solution to your problem.  Don't continue to check what's on the thread or any of the new replies to it.  You're behaving like somebody who's just seen a tragic, horribly gory traffic accident, but insists on circling back to it to get another look!  If you don't have something constructive to add to the conversation here on AC, find something better to do with your spare time.

SN

[JackD201]

Hi StereoNut,

I'll give this a shot for you.

There is a way to get some stage depth along the wide wall while having to keep them close to the wall. First let's deal with the bass issue. Seting your speakers farther apart will lessen the bass quite a bit. As much as 10 feet or a bit more will be fine for the Gen IIIs. I know. I owned a pair. This should make up for the boundary reinforcement their likely to get by spreading out the summing area. At 10 feet or more you'll now have to toe in your speakers more aggressively to focus the center fill. You can then raise the front spikes and that will add some depth. judicious use of your ambience tweeters will fill in your high corners. Give it a shot

[StereoNut]

Thanks, Jack

As I stated in my original post on this topic, my VR-4's are spaced 9 foot apart center on center and the front of each speaker is just under 4 feet from the wall behind them.  The way my room is configured, I can move them closer to the wall behind them, but not much further out.  Same thing with spacing between; I can move them closer together, but not much further apart (if at all) - although you're telling me that they shouldn't be much further apart that they are as is. 

I considered a "toe-in", but Mr. Von Schweikert himself told me that a toe-in would close in my left <> right soundstage, which is one of the things I like the most with my VR-4's right now.  I'd like more front to back depth in the presentation, but don't want to sacrifice the width of the soundstage to get it.  At the same time, I'm looking for a little more bass re-enforcement.  What makes this so hard is that I'm trying to accomplish all of these things without giving up one thing for the other.

Thanks for your suggestions.
SN

[ceedee]

Hi SteroNut,

I know these questions can drive you Nuts.

Please show some pictures from your room so we can see what the situation is all about.

When we "see" than we can "hear" what you are looking for.

Regards,

Cor

[StereoNut]

CeeDee

Great idea.  Maybe I can post some pix sometime tomorrow... I have plans for tonight.  The local audio club I belong to has it's monthly meeting! 

Be home late!   


SN

[ceedee]

OK SN,

Have fun at the local AC.

We see the PIX.

Cor

[JackD201]

Thanks, Jack

As I stated in my original post on this topic, my VR-4's are spaced 9 foot apart center on center and the front of each speaker is just under 4 feet from the wall behind them.  The way my room is configured, I can move them closer to the wall behind them, but not much further out.  Same thing with spacing between; I can move them closer together, but not much further apart (if at all) - although you're telling me that they shouldn't be much further apart that they are as is. 

I considered a "toe-in", but Mr. Von Schweikert himself told me that a toe-in would close in my left <> right soundstage, which is one of the things I like the most with my VR-4's right now.  I'd like more front to back depth in the presentation, but don't want to sacrifice the width of the soundstage to get it.  At the same time, I'm looking for a little more bass re-enforcement.  What makes this so hard is that I'm trying to accomplish all of these things without giving up one thing for the other.

Thanks for your suggestions.
SN

Aaaah I see try 6 to 8 inches closer to the wall and a broadband absorber measuring 6' by 3' wall mounted smack in the middle for that depth. That did the trick in my HT where I had the jrs only 3.5ft from the front wall and the speakers were also 9ft apart.

Herer's a pic. Despite the presence of a 42" plasma the depth still improved significantly. The absorber diffusor was of my own design. Stuffing is compressed fiberglass sealed in with cloth within a perforated metal screen 2" in depth at the edges peaking at 4" in the middle. The holes suck in the mids and the metal allows for some highs to escape and get back into the room so the panel doesn't kill transients. Looks kinda cool too in a Predator vs. Aliens kinda way 

[SundayNiagara]

SundayNiagra

Has your problem been solved???

If this thread or any other one on AC happens to bother, confuse, perplex or annoy you etc...  I have a simple solution to your problem.  Don't continue to check what's on the thread or any of the new replies to it.  You're behaving like somebody who's just seen a tragic, horribly gory traffic accident, but insists on circling back to it to get another look!  If you don't have something constructive to add to the conversation here on AC, find something better to do with your spare time.

SN

Ya buy $15k speakers, ya oughta be able to place them properly.  Otherwise, I'm sure Sony, etal makes some good stuff.

[StereoNut]

Jack: Thanks for the pix and your ideas for room treatment.

Sunday: Thanks for your continued wise-ass remarks. You are in need of treatment.

Here are two shots of my listening room to give everyone a better idea of what I'm talking about.





Thanks!
SN

[wimck]

Hi StereoNut,

What happened to your VR4's? Did you give them a new cover and let the bass port open?

I had mine placed nearly the same as yours but my room was much smaller so there was only 2' distance to the side walls
Two things about your situation! 1 - the back speaker sound of your left speaker is "blocked" by that cabinet and reflects different as the right speaker.
Can't you move the cabinet tot another place and move your complete setup to the middle of that wall?
2 - buy a bigger carpet! Stone floors are not that friendly for your sound most times.

[JackD201]

I can't see your electronics SN, what I remember from my Gen III HSEs is that they began to open up and boogie with 200wpc high current amps in my large room. My Aleph 0s fell flat on its face but the Levinson 332s could wrestle those woofers mighty good.

[StereoNut]

Hi StereoNut,

What happened to your VR4's? Did you give them a new cover and let the bass port open?

I had mine placed nearly the same as yours but my room was much smaller so there was only 2' distance to the side walls
Two things about your situation! 1 - the back speaker sound of your left speaker is "blocked" by that cabinet and reflects different as the right speaker.
Can't you move the cabinet tot another place and move your complete setup to the middle of that wall?
2 - buy a bigger carpet! Stone floors are not that friendly for your sound most times.

Wimck:

My VR-4's are Albert's "first born", serial #'s 001 & 002.  I don't know how many were manufactured like this before they started to coer over the bass port, but these are un-modded.  I'm guessing that the covered ports were something that changed over the course of production. 

Believe me, I understand that there are a lot of problems with this room (like my equipment cabinet being to the left and behind that speaker, open doorways in each front corner, etc...) but I am limited because of the way the room configures. 

 ? Putting everything on the opposite (long) wall isn't going to work because the stereo and TV etc. will block the windows! 

 ? Turning everything around to the short dimension of the room would be a better set up for stereo, but is impossible because if I set everything up 90 degrees to the right, it blocks the windows and cuts off the path to the doorway in that corner. 

 ? If I set everything up 90 degrees to the left, it blocks a window and closets and cuts off the path from my back door through the listening room into the kitchen via the open archway in that corner.   

 ? Even if I could find room to move my equipment cabinet somewhere else, I'm now creating an issue with "mile long" speaker cables (they're 12 footers now) and then not being able to hide a longer run of speaker cable anywhere because the floors are ceramic tile and you know that drilling holes in it to run cable through the crawl space isn't happening.  At least not if I intend on remaining married!

 ? A bigger carpet is possible, but I don't know what standard sizes are for area rugs.  The rug that's there now fits perfectly between the couch that faces the stereo and the front of the speakers and TV (front <> back) and as you can see in the pictures, just makes it width-wise to the outside of the speakers.

Thanks for your reply.  It's nice to get constructive feedback from most of you.

SN

[StereoNut]

I can't see your electronics SN, what I remember from my Gen III HSEs is that they began to open up and boogie with 200wpc high current amps in my large room. My Aleph 0s fell flat on its face but the Levinson 332s could wrestle those woofers mighty good.

Jack:

I'm running Naim electronics.  A chrome bumper NAP 250 power amp.  Rated conservatively at about 80 watts per side.  I've never felt like the VR-4's are underpowered, although I've also never heard them with a mega (200+ wpc) amp either.  I do know that the VR-4's do sound better with the volume up a bit.  They seem to "come alive" once you get to a certain point volume-wise.

SN

[Delacroix]

Hi SN

Keep at it ---I've powered my VR5se with a little old Naim Nait 2 integrated amp (30w if you cross your fingers when you count) and I've enjoyed the results (though there is no comparison in the bass with an amp of real power). I suspect your amp set up has other qualities which make for great music but 80w of naim is a lot more than some supposedly more powerful amps. For the data point, why not try a little toe-in to see if you like the effect? With your natural grid on the floor, you'll have no problem repositioning afterward. I tweaked and tweaked my positioning and while I know the straight on works well, I ended up preferring a spread out pair with toe-in.

I love the fact that Cardas has a 'method' for positioning but for me, with a 17ft wide room, that formula puts the speakers more than 7ft out into the room -- fine, if I lived without a family, totally impractical in my real world home. At the end of the day, all positioning is a compromise; you need to find the one you can live with best.

Best

APD.