OPPO BDP-83SE NuForce Edition !!!

antr · « **Reply #20 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 10:57 am »

Hi Jason..
I hope no changes are made in term of used power supply, so it can be used with 230V/50Hz with the same result....

srb · « **Reply #21 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 02:57 pm »

When NuForce was asked what DAC chip was used in the upcoming NuForce DAC, the reply was:

"We do not disclose anything internal and we wipe off the label on most critical chips. Disclosing what's inside could be misleading and confusing to many users. Two vendors could achieve very different result in audio quality even if they use the same DAC. There are so many other factors involved."

It is true that using a particular chip doesn't guarantee performance, and that implementation of the chip itself is just as important, or even more important. Realizing this, virtually every other DAC manufacturer feels comfortable in specifying which chip is used.

Whether it is paranoia, or perhaps previous experience with a competitor trying to "reverse engineer" their product, most consumers will want to know some details of what they are being asked to buy, beyond the manufacturer simply saying that it has an "improved power supply" or that there is a "further upgrade on the Sabre32 platform"

Perhaps that is not a consideration for the existing loyal NuForce customer base, but is certainly a huge factor in trying to attract new buyers.

Steve

cesarad · « **Reply #22 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 03:58 pm »

I'm an European customer (Italian); what about Region & Zone codes? the Oppo is region & zone free or i need a hardware upgrade? Eventually who should upgrade the player, Nuforce or i have to do it from myself?
Thanks

TomK1 · « **Reply #23 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 05:22 pm »

Quote from: srb on 10 Nov 2009, 02:57 pm

Perhaps that is not a consideration for the existing loyal NuForce customer base, but is certainly a huge factor in trying to attract new buyers.

Steve

Well, if they want to have "secret sauce" that's fine to a point... But there has to be at least some kind of general disclosure about what is going on for me to want to step up.

There are a few ways to mod a player and I wouldn't be interested in paying for "replaced capacitors with better capacitors" type mods but I am very interested in "replaced OPAMPS in I/V stage with passive IV stage or "redesigned power supply" (rather than just adding more capacitance). (BTW, does anyone know if the ES9016 DAC is current or voltage output?

Those of us with passive preamps would want to know if they are upgrading the output stage opamps (assuming there are opamps in the SE player as oppo ships it) or if they are just bypassed altogether.

There are some general approaches to designing a power supply or an output stage and to the extent that they are altering the player from one approach to another, I'd like to hear about it. I don't need to see the schematic drawings (and I wouldn't know how to read them anyway).

On another note, what kind of relationship does NuForce have with Oppo anyway? Are they some kind of "authorized reseller" that has oppo's official support to produce a special edition of their player, or are they "just a regular aftermarket modding outfit"?

Can't wait to get my hands on one version or another of this player...

ted_b · « **Reply #24 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 06:42 pm »

I agree that this rollout of the SE has been a mess (at least to the consumers, if you take in all the comments here and on AVS), and clearly rushed. First it was leaked via several sites, then ESS (chip maker) puts out a large ad in TAS that pre-empts Oppo's press releases, and references an Oppo site that has no new info. NuForce, up till now never seen as a 3rd party upgrade or mod company, also leaks the SE idea a few days before it is ready. Then NuForce announces the programs on their website (still no word from Oppo) yet within hours they change the program (rescind all but the NuForce Edition pre-order discounts, etc).

To further the confusion, Oppo fianally announces, and offers an Oppo-only trade-in/upgrade program that delivers SE internals and a standard faceplate (for $100 less than SE MSRP). Through all this confusion neither Oppo nor NuForce offer enough technical details (like answers to the above post) that are required when selling to the audiophile (their own words) market. As both companies have stated in the past, the value to the audiophile is in better analog-like sound, not necessarily the latest chip.

So, I guess at the end of the day I'm asking these questions:
1) What in NuForce's short albeit successful direct manufacturing history makes them a choice for 3rd party modifications and upgrades?
2) Why should we assume that swapping out what has now been a successful value-leader combo of chips and wire for newer chips and wire (no real redesign, at least none documented) will result in a successful recipe that actually tastes (sounds) better than the proven original? The classic adage "more is not always better" springs to mind.
3) If the SE version has not yet been delivered how will we know the value of the upgrades (NuForce Edition) product it replaces?

CG · « **Reply #25 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 08:23 pm »

I'm not sure that is really fair. This product release may have been less than perfect (I still haven't gotten any confirmation or reply on my own upgrade order, for example) but the technical information has been available, at least for the Oppo SE version.

Well before TAS hit mailboxes, Music Direct had the BDP-83 SE listed for sale on their web page. Availability and pricing were right there. At least until that page was pulled down. (You can still find it if you look in various web page cache locations.)

Even before that, like months before, someone from NuForce mentioned, on this very online forum, that they were working with Oppo on an improved version of the BDP-83. Based on that and the associated comments from NuForce representatives, it seems plausible that NuForce helped Oppo with this audio upgrade.

So, none of this is much of a surprise. Or shouldn't be.

From Oppo's own web page you can look at the replacement audio PC board used in the SE version. You can see for yourself what DACs are used and so on. Yeah, you can't read the part numbers on some of the parts, but systems have been reverse engineered with less information.

NuForce has a policy of not telling anybody much of anything regarding circuit details. So, you have to take the value of their changes on faith. Do they change out a few parts? Or is it a different pc board? Magic incantations? I guess the first person who takes the lid off will find out.

Oppo supplies this product to several other manufacturers who who use some or all of the innards to build a new product on. Ayre's Charles Hansen has already told the world what they are doing with the BDP-83 in their new player. Other companies aren't so forthcoming. And I'm not talking about NuForce, either.

ted_b · « **Reply #26 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 08:33 pm »

No one said it was a surprise; hardly. And the Music Direct example is but one more example that supports the position that this rollout was clumsy at best. If you feel the technical info is enough for you to make an informed purchase decision, then fine. I'm not making a judgment there at all (hell, I've bought big buck speakers without listening to them

). But I believe that the upgrade/modifications, especially in light of coming the same day as the stock product release (SE), should have more info than (in your own words) .."So, you have to take the value of their changes on faith. Do they change out a few parts? Or is it a different pc board? Magic incantations? I guess the first person who takes the lid off will find out."

CG · « **Reply #27 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 08:51 pm »

I am of the mind that a detailed explanation of the circuitry is of interest, and something to feed my curiosity, but that's it. Same for a schematic.

A spectrum analyzer plot of THD only can tell you whether something is really wrong.

I have spent countless hours in front of the most exotic audio test equipment trying to measure why some circuits sound different than others. Since any of the circuits I tried were of equal desirability to me, except for the sound, I don't think I was falling prey to some imagined placebo or any of that. I just learned that while I could spot trends and learned some areas that should be optimized, I couldn't entirely predict how something would sound based on measurements, at least to my taste. (That is not generally true with video, oddly enough...)

In the end the overall execution is what counts. And for that you need to listen to it. These days that's very hard with the moribund state of audio and video stores. So, you do need to take things on faith to a degree.

Personally, I don't care how the product roll-out was handled. I'm not a dealer nor do I own stock in any of the companies involved - that is their business. I can see why some people might be dismayed, but life is too short to worry about a week either way on some audio-video product. At least to me.

plivac · « **Reply #28 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 10:50 pm »

This was a VERY GOOD marketing move by NUForce......

Even if the improvement over SE (or for that matter standard 83) is minimal.....

John151 · « **Reply #29 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 11:15 pm »

Doh, wrong thread. Never mind.

ted_b · « **Reply #30 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 11:17 pm »

Quote from: John151 on 10 Nov 2009, 11:15 pm

I thought digital VC was frowned upon as it reduces resolution. Is this not true?

I certainly don't need a VC on a DAC: SB3 -> EE DAC -> pre-amp gives me 3 VCs! Seems like overkill for my set up.

What do you mean? What is VC? How do you have a Squeezebox 3 talking to this DAC chip in the Oppo??

John151 · « **Reply #31 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 11:28 pm »

ted - Sorry, I posted in the wrong thread (intended for the EE DAC thread). You must have qouted me as I was updating my post to say "nevermid".

sac8d4 · « **Reply #32 on:** 11 Nov 2009, 12:22 am »

Quote from: nuforce-casey on 10 Nov 2009, 07:32 am

Quote from: sac8d4 on 10 Nov 2009, 05:36 am
You have given a general list of upgrades, but can you be specific with the analog section such as what opamps are be using, or is it a discrete circuit sans opamps. How have you redesigned the anlaog circuit? How has the powersupply been beefed up from the upgraded PS that Oppo is putting in their SE version?
We provide the general description only. The specifics are Nuforce proprietary information.

As a potential owner of the Nuforce Edition and owner of Nuforce products , I dont think it is too much to ask for what general chnages what Nuforce has changed from the OPPO SE, such as changed opamps, or changes in caps, etc. Nuforce can't give that general information? I am as well interested in the Nuforce Edition, however I would like to know how it differs from the stardard SE version. I am even considering sending off the SE version to Modwright, however I want to justify my purchase, If I am able to hear a little more about the Nuforce, I think It may be a better bang for the buck assuming you are able to give potential customers a little more information what has been changed underthe hood of the Nuforce SE vs the Oppo SE.
Also, the link for the upgrade form (on the nuforce website) appears to not be working...

nuforce-casey · « **Reply #33 on:** 11 Nov 2009, 02:02 am »

Now that Oppo has provided an official upgrade for BDP83 to SE, Nuforce will refer all upgrade to Oppo.

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83SE/blu-ray-BDP-83SE-UpgradeOption.aspx

CG · « **Reply #34 on:** 11 Nov 2009, 02:32 am »

Casey,

You do mean upgrading BDP-83's sold prior to Nov 9 to SE status, don't you? Or do you mean that Oppo will be doing all upgrades, including up to the NuForce edition?

ted_b · « **Reply #35 on:** 11 Nov 2009, 02:35 am »

Quote from: nuforce-casey on 11 Nov 2009, 02:02 am

Now that Oppo has provided an official upgrade for BDP83 to SE, Nuforce will refer all upgrade to Oppo.

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83SE/blu-ray-BDP-83SE-UpgradeOption.aspx

Casey,
All upgrades to Oppo? I think you meant to say that any Oppo 83 that is purchased before Nov 9th will be upgraded by Oppo (for $299, without new faceplate). Any Oppo bought after that date can be sent to NuForce for a $400 upgrade to SE, or a $796 one to the NuForce Edition (according to your latest website change). Right??

No offense, but it's these kinds of terse announcements that perpetuate the confusion.

rustydoglim · « **Reply #36 on:** 11 Nov 2009, 02:18 pm »

Sorry, we were scrambling to provide the information so it is confusing. I think we sort it out now.
We don't do any BDP-83 to SE upgrade. If you purchase the BDP-83 before Nov 9, you can get the upgrade from OPPO at a good price.

If you want to upgrade to Nuforce Edition, you can send the BDP-83 to us and we'll take care of the whole transactions and deal with OPPO, or send to OPPO for upgrade and ask us to pick it up from OPPO. But don't send anything to us until you have been asked to do so. We have no spare boards for upgrade until after mid December.

If you have old BDP-83 and doesn't want to wait for upgrade (you could be waiting until Jan 2010), go with our trade-in offer.

We just publish further information via FAQ.
http://www.nuforce.com/hi/products/oppo_bdp83se/bdp83-upgrade.php
http://www.nuforce.com/hi/products/oppo_bdp83se/bdp83-faq.php

The upgrade form should be working, I just tried it: http://nuforce.com/tinc?key=480g62Wz&formname=OPPO_upgrade
Jason

rustydoglim · « **Reply #37 on:** 11 Nov 2009, 02:32 pm »

Quote

Also, the link for the upgrade form (on the nuforce website) appears to not be working...

Your browser might have a popup blocker that blocked the new window.

ted_b · « **Reply #38 on:** 11 Nov 2009, 02:40 pm »

Jason,
Great idea on the FAQ's, thanks.

New question (popped up on AVS too):
As a consumer who has had several pieces modded I can attest for the value of a stronger more stable power supply. Even things like video become cleaner and more vibrant when the better PS's are designed into an audio mod or upgrade. Oppo (and NuForce to some extent) has been very careful to say that NO video and/or HDMI processing will be improved one iota with the SE versions (NuForce saying though that the surround channels, although not modded, will improve indirectly due to said PS upgrade). Sooooooo, my question is this...Music Direct (an Oppo reseller) makes some very specific claims, on their website, about video blackness, color vibrancy, etc as benefits of the SE upgrade. What have you seen in your testing?

CG · « **Reply #39 on:** 11 Nov 2009, 03:18 pm »

OK, just to be entirely clear on this.

NuForce will only upgrade BDP-83 SE players.

If you purchased your BDP-83 prior to November 9th, it has to go to Oppo for the SE upgrade. This upgrade option from Oppo expires at the end of this year.

NuForce can do the transaction with Oppo if the customer prefers (part of the $796 upgrade option).

NuForce likely will not have BDP-83 SE to NuForce Edition upgrade capability until perhaps as late as January. (This suggests a void somewhere in the dates, but I presume that's all worked out.)

This correct??