[Beezer]

It'll be interesting to see if Bob replies here.  I know plenty of intelligent Christians who don't seem be living the dreadful life Tyson describes.  I think it's more about the journey than self-flagellation.  Of course, I'm neither religious or intelligent, so that's where Bob comes in.

Beez

[PocketPC Addict]

But truly, ask any christian if it is possible to live a sin-free life.  They will tell you that it is impossible.  My question is WHY is it impossible?  If we TRULY had choice, then it would actually be possible to live without sin, by choice.

However, that is not what you hear over, and over, and over again.  You always hear good people lamenting that they cannot live up to the good, no matter how hard they try.  Can you imagine trying to live that way?  Trying to live up to a standard you know you are ...

I haven't been to these forums for a long time...well, well what a topic!  

It's impossible for a Christian to live a sin free life because they are not Gods.  Sin is not only actions, it is thoughts and feelings as well.  To look on your neighbor's wife with lust is a sin.  Like Jesus, Christians are tempted, unlike Jesus, they slip.  

You said above "can you imagine trying to live that way?  Trying to live up to a standard you know you are fail regardless of what you do, to always be unworthy..."   The first day of Bible school should have taught you better than that.  It's sort of ridiculous to view it that way.  God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.  We all have quests in our lives, a quest for a moral life is a worthy quest.  Being a 1% moral failure is much better than being a 99% moral failure (ie. murderer, rapist, etc...) wouldn't you say?  

[ABEX]

If leaders understood or followed their faiths there would be no wars.

So you're saying that if we hadn't "persecuted" Muslims, they wouldn't be ATTACKING us, and involved in 28 of 32 world conflicts?

Not to get this into a political commentary,but just to answer that one.

In previous times alot was based on superstition.Today we have alot more info concerning who and under what cercumstances religious belief was based upon. An example is the highly disputed book of revelation.It was written with things pertaining to that time in history and was not based pon the visions which are associated with these times,though many will stand and say that the author meant this and that.

Back to your statement:
If leaders professed to believe and walk a holy path war would not exst to the extent of killing one another because that would have to be banished if you believe.If one is attacked then it is only right to defend ones self in political reasons. We should not laydown and let Hitlers of the world run wild.

Even Peter and Paul had disagreements that did not come to blows.The same should be so for those who make the politics of the world. But that's a fat chance due to greed IMO.

I have learned to just believe in the duality.Jungian thought appeals to me more than reading about organised religous issues.

I thought this thread would be a long one.

Just thinking!

[Tyson]

You said above "can you imagine trying to live that way? Trying to live up to a standard you know you are fail regardless of what you do, to always be unworthy..." The first day of Bible school should have taught you better than that. It's sort of ridiculous to view it that way. God hates the sin, but loves the sinner. We all have quests in our lives, a quest for a moral life is a worthy quest. Being a 1% moral failure is much better than being a 99% moral failure (ie. murderer, rapist, etc...) wouldn't you say?

Well, if he truly loves us, why did he create us so incapable of dealing with sin?  If you are saying that god, and only god, can be without sin, well who's fault is that?  I certainly didn't ASK to be burdened with all this inescapable sin, I was CREATED this way.  Since I had no choice at all in this matter, how can I be held responsible for God's design flaw?  If I truly had choice, I could choose not to sin.  I want 0% sin. Why is this not possible?  Since by your own admission sin is inescapable, then I don't really have choice, now do I?

[jkarhan1]

Abex: I agree. Many religions out there. Love to talk about them all. Still lots Im not familure with.  Some 3000 to 3500 Different of them.  As a nurse I interact with people of all faith. And want to learn more.  However.  We should probably stick to the ones we either know something about or have serious questions about.

Marbles: I am only most familure with Christianity, Buddhism, and some mysticism.
I have not read all of the bible.  But as far as women go.  The Christian bible holds them in high esteem. (I cannot speak for the Catholic dogma- I am unfamiliar with their twist on things)  My Old Test my favorite books are Ruth and Ester (short and easy to read  ).  Both books have women who changed history.  And Without these two women it is my understanding that Jesus would never existed.   My other thought is women are at the forefront of mention of creation and BOTH Man and Woman are made in the image of God.   In the New Test  Jesus was a ground breaker and ministered to women all the time (a big No No for the Jewish priest of he they).   He spoke to women on equal terms as men.  Plus I recall women being mentioned favorable light in early Christian writings. There is no indication they hated women.
I don’t recall any explicit mention of women in Buddhist history.  My friend from Taiwan remembers the flavor of Buddhism practiced in his province. It was oppressive. Ill ask about the women.

Tyson: For clarification. If I remember correctly.  Before Christ. The “Old Covenant” predicated the way to heaven.  Which was thru works (doing good i.e. 10 Commandments). –Actually similar to some Buddhist teaching. And people made it into Heaven that way.  Then when Christ came. That was the radical change from all other religions of the day.  He made the way for immediate relationship with God.   Hopefully this adds some more pieces to the puzzle.  –If Im inaccurate someone clear the fuzzies!
And the sin free thing:   A Baptist minister asked Gandhi if the Christian path allowed man to overcome sin.  The minister said “No”.  Unfortunately the minister was incorrect.  Poorly read maybe?  Christ did. And it is mentioned several times.  The pathway to overcome sin is mentioned several times. Not by choice per-se. But by the power of God (Holy Spirit/spirit of God) in you. But is a Choice to tap that resource.    Resolved.  Help a little?

[jkarhan1]

Im off to watch LOTR.  Be interestion to see where this is at in 3 hours.
Cheers!

[Tyson]

The example of christ (and the fact that christ is the only one that did it) merely re-inforces what I am saying about god being the only one capable of living up to his standards.  Hey, it's not my fault that I'm an imperfect, sin-laden being.  Who's fault is it?  The finger inexorably has to point to god, since he's the one that set this whole universe up in the first place.  Instead of giving us a savior, why didn't he just give us true choice?  If he hates sin, he has no one to blame but himself, why take it out on us in the form of eternal damnation for his own screw up.

[Sa-dono]

God hates the sin, but loves the sinner. We all have quests in our lives, a quest for a moral life is a worthy quest. Being a 1% moral failure is much better than being a 99% moral failure (ie. murderer, rapist, etc...) wouldn't you say?

This brings up another interesting point...homosexuals. If it is ever proven that this is not a choice, but a trait they are born with...then how do you explain them? If I'm not mistaken, it is a sin to be a homosexual (implied by the Bible)...so they would sin in so many ways throughout their life...and according to some religious folk be doomed to go to hell. So why would God create humans that are automatically sinners (with no choice)? Maybe God is just a comical, cruel, and/or spiteful god? Not that I have complaints about bisexual women

[Sa-dono]

Well, if he truly loves us, why did he create us so incapable of dealing with sin?  If you are saying that god, and only god, can be without sin, well who's fault is that?  I certainly didn't ASK to be burdened with all this inescapable sin, I was CREATED this way.  Since I had no choice at all in this matter, how can I be held responsible for God's design flaw?  If I truly had choice, I could choose not to sin.  I want 0% sin. Why is this not possible?  Since by your own admission sin is inescapable, then I don't really have choice, now do I?

Brilliant!

[Tyson]

Good point Sa-Dano.

In case it's not clear, I blame god for mankind's suffering.  He's the one that set the rules of the game, so it is his fault that things can suck as bad as they do.

Don't blame man for man's shortcomings, place the blame where it belongs, the creator of man.

BTW, my only complaint about bi-sexual women is that they usually look like men  

[jfreeman373]

The reason that it is impossible is because we are all descendants of Adam (according to my belief).  When Adam was created he was a perfect being, but when he disobeyed god and ate from the tree of "knowledge of good and evil" he had created sin in mankind.  Because all mankind has descended from him, we have all had that seed of sin implanted into us.  But, because Jesus was not concieved by man, and therefore not cursed by man's seed, he got around the evil corrupting seed thing. He was born perfect with the choice and power to overcome sin.....which he did.  Then when jesus was crucified and resurrected, he..... overcame death,( the curse and byproduct of sin).

So our choice is not whether or not we will make mistakes or not .....(because we shall certainly do so), it is whether  we shall submit our WILL (our choice to obey god or ourselves) TO God.  Shall we reliquish our choice to GOD whom it was given freely from in exhcange for eternal life? Our decision to do our "own will" or "God's will" is what stands in the balance.  Shall we worship ourselves or worship him?  That is the choice we are given.  Seeing how we were created in the image of God it becomes very easy for us to worship ourselves, because we see ourselves in the mirror... and the vainity of the glory bestowed onto us keeps our eyes off of God and the worship and glory that the Father deserves is placed upon  ourselves.  

By the blood of Jesus we become WORTHY to recieve and commune with god the father as one of his children.  We then become "children of GOD".

When your child does wrong (sins) do you scorn him/her? Hopefully yes!  Does that mean you hate them? Hopefully NOT!  

So when we sin we are still worthy, becuase it is not sin....it is a mistake.  The way it should have been from the very beginning.  You see... when Adam ate that fruit...he had the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. But..because he had the knowledge, but no UNDERSTANDING of good OR evil, when HE made a mistake it became SIN.  Because he already knew it was wrong in the first place.  But he was curious...."why is it wrong to do such thing?"  

NOW...what if you knew it was wrong to put your hand on the stove when you were a little child (because mom or dad said not to), but you had never EXPERIENCED the hot sensation before?  Wouldn't it be tempting to put your hand up there to find out what was like?  So you do it and get burned.

Now you know what the sensation of hot is, but your skin is melting off.  Now your parents are sad for you but they are angry also that you didn't listen to them...because they knew that this could have avoided.  They didn't say not to do a thing because they were trying to kill your fun, they told you cause they love you and don't want anything bad to happen to you. Such is the same with God's children.  Those whom he loves he chastens. Those who he dosn't are none of his.  

So through Jesus I belive that SIN has been destroyed...but mistakes are still in this world...it is part of the living experience, sometimes you trip over your own feet...does that make you evil? No... It means you are clumbsy.  

[Marbles]

BTW, my only complaint about bi-sexual women is that they usually look like men  

Not in the movies I watch  

[nathanm]

Oh my GOD!   This must be the fastest-moving thread I ever saw.  I'm sitting here reading Marble's first post, think about tossing in something, figure "no, it's too dicey" and decide to take a nap instead.  I wake up 45 replies and 5 pages later!  Wowza!  Okay, time to read it closer...

[Tyson]

So our choice is not whether or not we will make mistakes or not .....(because we shall certainly do so), it is whether we shall submit our WILL (our choice to obey god or ourselves) TO God. Shall we reliquish our choice to GOD whom it was given freely from in exhcange for eternal life? Our decision to do our "own will" or "God's will" is what stands in the balance. Shall we worship ourselves or worship him? That is the choice we are given. Seeing how we were created in the image of God it becomes very easy for us to worship ourselves, because we see ourselves in the mirror... and the vainity of the glory bestowed onto us keeps our eyes off of God and the worship and glory that the Father deserves is placed upon ourselves.

Cmon, this is truly amazing - god gives us free will, then demands that we submit ourselves to HIS will.  jeez, he creates is in HIS image, then demands that we completely submit ourselves to his will, then demands that we worship and love him unconditionaly, and WE are the ones called vain?  Sounds like god's got a bit of vanity problem himself. . .

Why couldn't he just say "Hey, you are all my creation, I love you, here is this really cool world to live in, enjoy it and have fun.  I'll see you all in heaven when you are done with the earthly life."  Now that would be a good and loving god, IMO.

[Marbles]

welcome jfreeman373

Did you know that there was a pagan god who rose from the dead in 3 days long before christ?  Did you know that the eating of flesh and blood was a pagen ritual long before Constatine coopted it for the Catholic church?

[Marbles]

Why couldn't he just say "Hey, you are all my creation, I love you, here is this really cool world to live in, enjoy it and have fun. I'll see you all in heaven when you are done with the earthly life." Now that would be a good and loving god, IMO.
.

Now how would the churchs get people to donate to them with an attitude like that  

[Tyson]

jfreeman,
to answer the gist of your post in one go, I say that a "choice" without understanding is no choice at all.  To kick adam out of heaven for being curious seems really harsh to me, and I'm not even an all-loving god.

But, to then condemn generation after generation after generation of adams descendants to sin, suffering, and death, all because adam was curious, well that is simply monstrous.  

So, if I follow your analogy, if we are God's children, shouldn't God have acted like a grown up in the first place, and merely chastized and corrected adam, instead of wreaking biblical veangance on all of mankind?

[jfreeman373]

Cmon, this is truly amazing - god gives us free will, then demands that we submit ourselves to HIS will.  jeez, he creates is in HIS image, then demands that we completely submit ourselves to his will, then demands that we worship and love him unconditionaly, and WE are the ones called vain?  Sounds like god's got a bit of vanity problem himself. . .

Why couldn't he just say "Hey, you are all my creation, I love you, here is this really cool world to live in, enjoy it and have fun.  I'll see you all in h ...

It sounds good.  But I guess I like my friends to like me because they LIKE ME not because I command them to like robots.  Hell is not a firey place... it is just a place that is seperated from god for eternity;  Knowing that you can never reach him.  That frustration, regret, and eternal lamenting is the fire that burns your soul forever .  You don't HAVE to worship God that is your free choice, that was your gift of free will.  But if you don't want to hang out with a certain person, why should you get angry when they say that you can't come over?

[Tyson]

Command like robots?  Oh no, god wants you to bend your will to his by choice!  Having people willingly subsuming themselves to you is SO MUCH better than forcing them to do so.  After all, simply commanding loyalty and obedience is not enough, your subjects must LOVE you as well, and love you unconditionally at that.  Yes, that is much better food for vanity.

When I decide whether I like a person or not, I talk to them, and more importantly, THEY TALK BACK, something that god never, ever does.  So how can I make a decision if I like him, let alone want to spend all of eternity with him.  Yeah, I see all of his followers telling me I'm asking too much, that God makes himself known in "mysterious ways".  All I want is a friggin conversation with the dude so I can get to know him a bit before making that kinda commitment.  Jeez, is that too much to ask?  Maybe so.  Maybe god is really shy.  Reticent.

And please don't tell me I have to "open my heart" and god will make himself know.  Been there, done that, nothing at all to show for years of my life "opening my heart".

God had his chance and he BLEW it.  But, hey, I'm still open to the possiblity of there being a god, and for the scales to fall from my eyes and all goodness, love, and wisdom being revealed to me.  But I'm not holding my breath.

[jfreeman373]

jfreeman,
But, to then condemn generation after generation after generation of adams descendants to sin, suffering, and death, all because adam was curious, well that is simply monstrous.  

I'm sure you believe in the science of genetics?  Well once our genes were mutated by the fruit, that was that.  God created science, it is his toolbox used to create the universe.  There are certain rules (physics) that he created that control the existence of our universe. I guess he could have changed his own rules and fixed it...but he didn't...but he did! Get that one ! I don't know, but as far as my life has gone he must be a loving God seeing how at one point I rejected all to do with God. Somehow he got MY attention and changed my whole spirit.I am much happier for it....AND I'm still alive! Should be dead and consumed by fire many times over.