Eastern Electric DAC

srb · « **Reply #340 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 02:43 am »

Bill,

The Apple Airport Express is a compact wireless router that has only one wired LAN port.

Although it can connect to a cable or DSL modem and be your only wireless router (with the limitation of only one wired LAN port), most people use it in conjunction with their existing wireless router to wirelessly stream iTunes audio via the AirTunes feature.

It has a mini-Toslink optical output (like on iMacs and MacBooks) that can be fed to a DAC with an optical input. The current version is 802.11 'N' wireless, where the previous version was 802.11 'G'.

For some reason, some DACs are having trouble keeping the optical signal locked with the newest 'N' version, while others are not. I think the other DAC that was mentioned having the problem was the Peachtree Nova, which also uses an ESS Sabre chip (different model chip). Hmmm......... DoctorCilantro previously reported "Peachtree had to do a firmware update to the Nova as the n Airports weren't compatible."

Steve

Bill O'Connell · « **Reply #341 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 02:52 am »

I just did a small search but did find this.

Thanks to Peter Logan at Crutchfield who wrote the article but it was dated.

"Again, uncharacteristically delving into the owner's manual, I discovered that in the WDS mode, the AirPort Express does not support WPA wireless security. As my existing wireless network was using WPA security, I had to access the AirPort Setup Utility to set the security level to WEP — still very secure, but not quite as robust as WPA. After a few tweaks to the AirPort Setup Assistant, I set my main base station to allow the AirPort Express to join and extend the range of the network. After matching the security levels and passwords, the AirPort Express seamlessly joined the existing network."

I do have wireless, using a Linksys router and have the encryption of WEP 128 bit which is good protection from what I have read.
Using that, I just haven't tried the Apple Airport Express so I'm just not familiar but from the little I have read this could be the problem.

I know earlier in this thread somebody had a way to make the Airport work, I will have to read it over again to familiarize myself with it.

srb · « **Reply #342 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 03:03 am »

WPA, or WPA2, is a more secure encryption than WEP. I was able to connect the Airport Express to my D-Link-624 'G' router using WPA, but it would repeatedly loose the connection multiple times throughout the day, and take a rather long time to reconnect, so I reverted to using WEP.

I know others have successfully kept them connected under WPA, so I thought it might just be my older router with an older early 2007 WPA implementation.

But the wireless connection is not the problem users are experiencing with the EE and Peachtree DACs. It's the optical connection to the DAC. I think somewhere in this thread, higher jitter on this AE 'N' version was mentioned. Maybe that's it, and somehow the ESS Sabre chips are less tolerant of jitter on the Toslink input?

I don't know, but I would sure like to know about this supposed firmware update that can be applied to the Sabre.

Steve

roscoeiii · « **Reply #343 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 03:11 am »

If I understand correctly, the AEX optical out was working with other DACs but not with the EE.

srb · « **Reply #344 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 03:14 am »

That's correct, and another DAC that supposedly had trouble with it was the Peachtree Audio Nova, which also uses an ESS Sabre series chip. I wonder if any Twisted Pear Buffalo DAC (another ESS Sabre based DAC) users had any problems?

Steve

aloft · « **Reply #345 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 06:20 am »

Many thanks Bill, for trying to help out those who use the AEx N to pipe computer-stored music into their main audio system.

I am not sure about roscoeili's statement though regarding other DACs playing nicely with the AEx's optical out. When I googled around yesterday I found a number of posts mentioning this problem with a variety of DACs. And someone from Empirical audio commented on the extremely high jitter of the AEx N optical out which in his opinion rendered it useless for hi-fi. A statement that stands in stark contrast to what I've read before buying the AEx, namely a bit-perfect output that, in conjunction with a good DAC, provides extremely good sound quality, wirelessly.

If this thread would serve the purpose of finding the underlying cause of the problem and address it properly (for instance with a firmware update), I'd be sold on the EE DAC in a second.

Bill O'Connell · « **Reply #346 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 06:49 am »

I'm not up to speed yet on the Airport Express but we really didn't build the EE DAC around trying to support the Apple product, it seems they have some issues with other DAC's also as you have suggested.

We will however see what can be done to possibly resolve the issue.If something can we will, if not, we still will if possible.

Bill O'Connell · « **Reply #347 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 06:55 am »

aloft,
you mentioned the extremely high jitter in the AEx N, I would think the EE DAC with the ESS Technology Sabre 9018 Dac chip with its reputation for Jitterless( why do I want to put in the girl icon with the bouncing jugs here) would eliminate that problem.

srb · « **Reply #348 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 07:59 am »

I don't know if the info about Peachtree updating firmware on the chip to alleviate this is true, but it couldn't hurt to query ESS about it.

Although I am currently using the analog out with my 3 Airport Express in non-critical locations (and not on the main system), I know that others may be wanting to use it as their primary music server connection.

Steve

aloft · « **Reply #349 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 11:59 am »

Bill,

of course I wouldn't expect you to support an Apple product, but OTOH it'd be a heck of a selling point if the EE technical engineers would be able to resolve the problem. I presume most people buying a DAC today store their music files on NAS servers somewhere else in the house rather than nearby their main audio system. This still doesn't make it your problem, but I'd be nice if you could contribute to a solution.

If anybody else could chime in presenting an alternative to the AEx N, I'd be all ears. For instance, does the AEx "G", which by all accounts works fine, provide enough usable bandwith to playback Apple Lossless files?

Thanks,

Matt

roscoeiii · « **Reply #350 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 01:23 pm »

and I think that you will find that a large number of audiophiles are using the AEX becuase it is both a very simple and inexpensive way to stream music, and it got a great review in Stereophile when released. A potent combo.

doctorcilantro · « **Reply #351 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 03:52 pm »

A user with the Peachtree Nova ran through a number of Toslink cables and I believe he ended up finding one that worked; it was the most well-constructed one. The AEX-N apparently does have high jitter.

My results w/ my replacement unit from Bill (many thanks on your outstasninding customer service!):

Oppo BDP83 Tos. - perfect
Oppo BDP83 Coax RCA - perfect

Musiland Coax RCA - dropping sync; slow blinking at 44kHz; fast blinking at 96kHz; rapid blinking at 192kHz
Musiland Coax BNC - dropping sync; slow blinking at 44kHz; fast blinking at 96kHz; rapid blinking at 192kHz

Unfortunately, I mailed the Musiland back to a friend (who been patiently waiting too lng already) and could not test the Toslink output. I did, however, use this same unit via BNC on my Peachtree Nova with no issues, BUT ironically when the Nova was modded for BNC, they tethered it onto the 2nd digital input....the one which accepts more jitter.

I will be able to test with these in the next few weeks:

Sony DVP-S330 (RCA)
Roku streamer (RCA)
Lynx AES16 (AES)

DC

doctorcilantro · « **Reply #352 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 03:57 pm »

It is strange that Peachtree had to mod their units, and now we have these problems arising on AEX here and with the Musiland.

Seems like ESS patented jitter elimination magic is simply to block high jitter transports data stream LOL.....

srb · « **Reply #353 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 05:06 pm »

Another DAC that had problems with the Airport Express optical was the HeadRoom Ultra Desktop DAC that uses the ............... ESS Sabre chip.

A reference on a HeadRoom Forum thread was made to the "jitter acceptance aperature software setting".

Steve

sfox7076 · « **Reply #354 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 11:19 pm »

It is rather annoying to buy a product and not have it work with the product you have used for a year +. I have had the AEX with my Anthem for a year or so. I added the EE Dac because I am setting up a second system and was going to use an AEX for that. Now that will not be a possibility if the AEX issue is not fixed. The AEX works fine with the Anthem...

Gopher · « **Reply #355 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 11:35 pm »

Forgive an uniformed question, but do the Airport Express' have any advantages over the Logitech Squeezeboxes?

My DAC has synched with my Duet without issue and sounds wonderful. Is the AEX the same basic thing?

The only thing my DAC doesn't seem to want to synch stably with is my TV's cable box. I'll play around and see what I can do as there are occasionally concerts I wouldn't mind listening to on the big rig, but I'm loving this kit so far.

Anyone else swap tubes yet? I tried a couple fancy NOS in there and actually find myself preferring the stock... Maybe I'm losing it.

sfox7076 · « **Reply #356 on:** 2 Mar 2010, 11:45 pm »

Same basic concept as a Duet, but it is cheaper and is also a wireless router, a print server if you need it to be and will let you hook your blu ray player for Blue Ray live and firmware downloads without the hassle of running Cat5 cable. I am sorry to be frustrated, but it is annoying.

srb · « **Reply #357 on:** 3 Mar 2010, 12:04 am »

I'm wondering if anyone has the older Airport Express 'G' version, and if so, have you tried it with the EE Minimax DAC?

These are available for $30 - $40 used. Given that the AE is limited to 16bit/44.1 KHz, the 'G' bandwith should be sufficient for that. I bought the newer 'N' versions simply because they were the "latest and greatest".

So far, the three DACs I know about having trouble with the AE are all ESS Sabre chip based. Does anyone have a DAC with a different chip that is having problems with Airport Express' optical output?

Steve

buzz · « **Reply #358 on:** 3 Mar 2010, 01:46 am »

I stumbled across this as I am having the same problem getting my AirportExpress to function with my EE Sabre DAC as well. (choppy audio playback) Could someone post a link to the fix please? Thank you.

Disabling the auto time update did NOT fix the dropout issues... Turning off all security encryption (from WPA2 security to none) is NOT a fix. Buffering the digital signal with a Genesis Digital Lens did not help. And routing digital through the Behringer DEQ 24/96 did not help.

That being said... I really don't like the AirportExpress. What are you guys using for digital output from your Apple equipment? I think we need something 'more worthy' of the Eastern Electric DAC 192khz ability.

sfox7076 · « **Reply #359 on:** 3 Mar 2010, 02:13 am »

I never really had a problem with the AEX... Until now.