Trying bass trapping before ordering from RealTraps or GIK

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #80 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 02:36 pm »

Quote from: TRADERXFAN on 14 Oct 2009, 04:57 pm

Could you explain or refute their comment that a solid lump of insulation in the high pressure, low flow zone in the corner is not going to be as effective?

Tube traps like what ASC sells, or as commonly DIY'd, are not tuned, nor is "pressure" an appropriate word. The material they are made from is porous! They work on the same gas-flow resistance mechanism as a flat panel made from rigid fiberglass or equivalent. This is why capping the ends is not relevant to their performance. I'm sure ASC caps the ends only for strength and mechanical stability. As I said earlier, adding a rigid barrier can only reduce effectiveness slightly because that prevents sound waves from getting in through the top to be absorbed. So the best "mod" is to fill the tube solid with fiberglass, and leave the ends open or covered with thin plastic or cardboard.

--Ethan

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #81 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 02:50 pm »

So you are basically "calling shenanigans"?

arthurs · « **Reply #82 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 02:58 pm »

Quote from: TRADERXFAN on 15 Oct 2009, 02:50 pm

So you are basically "calling shenanigans"?

No, I think Ethan is saying this is a traveshamockery...

TomS · « **Reply #83 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 06:43 pm »

Quote from: arthurs on 15 Oct 2009, 02:58 pm

Quote from: TRADERXFAN on 15 Oct 2009, 02:50 pm
So you are basically "calling shenanigans"?

No, I think Ethan is saying this is a traveshamockery...

And that Ethan is a shy one

Great thread guys... keep it coming (and vendor friendly).

bdiament · « **Reply #84 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 06:58 pm »

I would suggest folks interested in the cylindrical type of trap try the variations (sealed ends vs. open ends and filled core vs. hollow core).
Do keep in mind you must have a good number of each variation to get a good handle on what it is (and is not) doing.

Having auditioned a lot of products and personally finding ASC's (and others based on Harry Olsen's pioneering work) to quite easily be the ones I decided on for my own studio and for those I have designed, I tend to take the designer's word for why he made certain decisions regarding their construction.

That said, my advice is to always take in all the information you can find, try things for yourself and draw your own conclusions.

Happy Listening!

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

arthurs · « **Reply #85 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 07:24 pm »

Solid advice Barry, and this thread has been very helpful in laying out a few variants to try, with sound reasoning and experience behind each. I'm interested to hear what I end up with in a few weeks.

Thanks to all!

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #86 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 07:30 pm »

Oh, I still plan on my experiment. The pipe insulation is on the way. -Although its going to be a month or more for me to really get to it

-Tony

Spirit · « **Reply #87 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 07:55 pm »

My 2 cents:
I don't have any acoustical products in my listening area. I have been researching various products over the last few months. I have had gracious help from Bryan Pape and met him at RMAF. A really stand up guy! I have also had some communication with Barry Diament about the tube traps which he uses in his studio and those that he designs for others.
There are 2 camps here:
1: The "Flat" panels - such as GIK and Real Traps market
2: The Tube Traps which are sold by ASC and also are in the DIY dept.
I haven't tried either one but I will state the following:
We are extremely lucky to have someone with the pedigree of Barry Diament offering his advice to ACers. I would bet more than a dollar that any one who listens to the radio hears one of the songs that Barry has mastered every single day!!

Jackson Browne, Brubeck, Phil Collins, Ellington, ELP, Zeppelin, Bob Marley, Stevie Nicks, Ronstadt, Yes, etc, etc

If Barry Diament makes a statement that Tube Traps are his preferred acoustic product - it has to be worth trying.

bmckenney · « **Reply #88 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 08:34 pm »

I'm a believer now. I'm the OP just in case its not apparent. Rather than trying the pipe insulation DIY approach which I wouldn't be able to return to the vendor, I grabbed two bags of R20 insulation and put them in the corners behind the speakers. At first I wasn't that impressed. But I had inadvertently and stoopidly changed my speaker placement before that. Then I discovered it after I took the bags back. The speaker placement issue was actually a huge one. Once corrected, the room is energized and sounds fantastic, as it should have. When it was wrong, it sucked and it made hearing what two bags of insulation could do very difficult. So once I realized this I went and got two bags again. The affect is fantastic actually. Much imrpoved transparency. Really cleared up some smearing in the sound (ringing, whatever the technical term is). Also made the sound more natural and easy to listen too. Less fatiguing. I can do louder and it is easier on the ear, and I can listen at lower SPLs now and hear more, so I don't even want to turn it up. I was really expecting to hear improved bass response and thats it. I figured that was bass trapping would do. I thought improved transparency, imaging etc would be solved with side wall or ceiling reflection diffusion. I wasn't expecting bass trapping to do this to be honest.

Its made me a believer. I am hoping a couple of real bass trapping products that are better than a couple of bags of R20 insulation, at more of a cost yes, will sound X percent better than what I am hearing with two bags costing $60. I know DIY is cheaper etc, but I don't want DIY in my room because you know who won't like it.

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #89 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 09:03 pm »

Quote from: bmckenney on 15 Oct 2009, 08:34 pm

I'm a believer now. I'm the OP just in case its not apparent. Rather than trying the pipe insulation DIY approach which I wouldn't be able to return to the vendor, I grabbed two bags of R20 insulation and put them in the corners behind the speakers. At first I wasn't that impressed. But I had inadvertently and stoopidly changed my speaker placement before that. Then I discovered it after I took the bags back. The speaker placement issue was actually a huge one. Once corrected, the room is energized and sounds fantastic, as it should have. When it was wrong, it sucked and it made hearing what two bags of insulation could do very difficult. So once I realized this I went and got two bags again. The affect is fantastic actually. Much imrpoved transparency. Really cleared up some smearing in the sound (ringing, whatever the technical term is). Also made the sound more natural and easy to listen too. Less fatiguing. I can do louder and it is easier on the ear, and I can listen at lower SPLs now and hear more, so I don't even want to turn it up. I was really expecting to hear improved bass response and thats it. I figured that was bass trapping would do. I thought improved transparency, imaging etc would be solved with side wall or ceiling reflection diffusion. I wasn't expecting bass trapping to do this to be honest.

Its made me a believer. I am hoping a couple of real bass trapping products that are better than a couple of bags of R20 insulation, at more of a cost yes, will sound X percent better than what I am hearing with two bags costing $60. I know DIY is cheaper etc, but I don't want DIY in my room because you know who won't like it.

That's great news! I was wondering what your situation was, that it made no difference to you. Glad you solved it.

-Tony

Browntrout · « **Reply #90 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 10:00 pm »

Hello, I think this is what I bought in the 33kg/m3 density at a guess, it's very easy to compress and while it will stand upright when leant against a wall it has some curve to it under it's own weight.
http://www.knaufinsulation.co.uk/products/rocksilk_slabs/rocksilk_universal_slab.aspx

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #91 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 01:03 am »

Quote from: TRADERXFAN on 15 Oct 2009, 07:30 pm

Oh, I still plan on my experiment. The pipe insulation is on the way. -Although its going to be a month or more for me to really get to it

-Tony

Where did you get your pipe insulation?

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #92 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 01:31 am »

www.amerisafe.net

It is a local place, to me, in Aurora IL.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #93 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 02:32 am »

Quote from: TRADERXFAN on 16 Oct 2009, 01:31 am

www.amerisafe.net

It is a local place, to me, in Aurora IL.

I have called about 16 places in Boston trying to find the stuff, but every supplier that I called told me to try some other supplier. No one seems to stock the larger IDs here.

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #94 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 02:40 am »

Well, they didn't stock the 16 or 20", but they ordered it. Did you ask the suppliers if they could order it for you?

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #95 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 02:46 am »

Quote from: TRADERXFAN on 16 Oct 2009, 02:40 am

Well, they didn't stock the 16 or 20", but they ordered it. Did you ask the suppliers if they could order it for you?

A couple. They didn't want to place an order for (8 ) 3' sections of 24". I don't even know what the cost would be.

The largest diameter that anyone had in stock was 6".

bmckenney · « **Reply #96 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 02:47 am »

Question for the experts or anyone really. This is my way of bring some closure to my original post. Now that I know what some front wall corner bass trapping can do by way of a couple of bags of insulation, I'd like to know what better, proper, bass traps will do relative to the bags. I'm assuming the bags are seriously flawed bass traps, or maybe not seriously but partially. A proper bass trap, whether DIY or manufactured, will be better. But to what degree relatively speaking? How would something like an ASC tube trap or a GIK or Real Traps bass trap compare to the insulation in a bag I just experienced? Is the bag only doing something like 50% of what a proper trap can do? Measurement comparisons of bags versus product X would obviously be a good way coming up with a sort of % difference, but that isn't available. So if anyone cares to give a gut instinct, educated guess, I'd be interested in that.

Browntrout · « **Reply #97 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 10:05 am »

This is my gut instinct. I reckon the lower density stuff in large quantities (as in so large they make it impossible for them to be 'integrated' with any living space decor no matter how hard you try) will give the best results. This is based upon my understanding (limited) of how these things work, as in , I think the lower density mineral wool creates a more open face for the sound and therefore rejects or resists less of the pressure change at the boundry between the wool and free air. The large size (as in deep and tall and wide) gives the sound plenty of time to interact within the medium (wool) abd therefore plenty of distance through which to lose it's energy.
If someone walks into a shop and says I want acoustic treatment for my stereo and you show them four panels a foot thick and six feet high and three feet wide I can't see you selling too many so the manufcturere has to, like in all industry, match performance with suitablilty and customer satisfaction and the most suitable way to impliment something given the parameters set out by their customer. Which is a good thing by the way.

bpape · « **Reply #98 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 11:15 am »

The insulation in the wrapper is actually surprisingly good. What you get with a finished product is:

- A known set of specs
- Better finish
- Smoother absorption response while taking up less space (at least with our Tri Traps

) Not so much with a 16 or 20" diameter tube though the performance is still there.

Bryan

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #99 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 03:37 pm »

Quote from: bmckenney on 16 Oct 2009, 02:47 am

I'm assuming the bags are seriously flawed bass traps, or maybe not seriously but partially.

Bryan has the right answer. Bags of insulation work well, at least if they're large enough and you have enough of them.

--Ethan