Thoughts on driving SongTowers

FidelitySeeker · « **on:** 20 Sep 2009, 01:22 am »

I am delighted to have a pair of ST RT's en route to my home. I have some vintage and some not so vintage hardware I have accrued over the years.
This is an audition for me, but based on individual and pro reviews compared against my own auditioning experiences combined with email discussions with Jim and Dennis about "which tweeter", I believe my research is as far as it can go without actually hearing the speakers.
Initially, I will be using a (relatively) modern Marantz SR-6001 receiver. This is an HT receiver, but I use it strictly as a stereo receiver. This unit offers Auddysey MultEQ. What is the thinking on using something like Auddysey for 2.0 and, potentially 2.1 systems?
I also have a vintage Sansui AU-717 integrated amp I paid $450 for in 1980. This is the same unit Stevie Wonder had in his studio back at the time. I believe it is considered dual mono. I have a local shop which has gone over it and replaced the caps. This is the best link I have found for a general overview:
http://www.vintageaudio.com.au/Amps/Sansui/Sansui%20AU-717%20Integrated%20Amp.htm
http://www.sansui.us/images/Manuals/au717_spec.JPG

So, whadaya think?
New? Old? Doesn't matter? Neither?
If new, Auddysey MultEQ?

TIA!

Nuance · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 03:05 am »

No to Audyssey. Listen to the speakers first, then if you aren't getting everything you want give Audyssey a shot. Every time I have run Audyssey it fixes bass anomalies but ruins the sound above 200Hz.

How much power does the Sansui put out? The Marantz puts out an honest 100 watts, so you should be fine. I guess it really depends on your listening distance and how loud you listen, though.

ecramer · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 03:23 am »

I personally like the Sansui house sound esp. on vintage speakers 85watts from that era is no doubt underrated. I think it will drive those speakers fine. Ive heard a lot of vintage Marntz 2 chanel over the years but not any of the newer stuff.

Ed

R Swerdlow · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 03:33 am »

deleted - double post

R Swerdlow · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 03:41 am »

Congrats on your new SongTowers

. You're gonna love them. They are an easy load for most amps or receivers. Both Dennis and Jim agree that an honest 50 wpc drives them easily.

I've heard STs driven by a number of different amps, from a 35 wpc AVA Ultra 70 tube amp, a 70 wpc Denon AVR, a 100 wpc Outlaw stereo receiver, a 130 wpc AVA rebuilt Hafler amp, to a 200 wpc B&K amp. None of them were lacking. The ST does very well with bigger amps, but it does not require them to sound good.

Your Marantz receiver at 100 wpc should do fine. That Sansui looks like it was top of the line for its time. If it delivers 85 wpc, it also should do fine.

K Shep · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 05:09 am »

Quote from: FidelitySeeker on 20 Sep 2009, 01:22 am

So, whadaya think?
New? Old? Doesn't matter? Neither?

IMO the question is how do you plan to use the speakers? You mentioned audyssey for 2.0 or 2.1, is that the setup of the system for the STs? In a 2 channel system, with or without a sub(s), I recommend separates, always. If you are using the speakers in an HT setup then your current Marantz should do fine. I had an NAD integrated amp hooked up the ST RTs and the move to separates made a huge difference in performance.

So the head line is if your are building a system to get the best performance for your SongTowers go with a preamp and an amp. New or old doesn't matter.

Kirk

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 05:22 am »

Congratulations on your speakers, and welcome aboard.

I also suggest that you avoid any EQ and focus on speaker placement and other room acoustic/treatment issues. There is good reading on The Acoustics Circle.

If, as Kirk stated, you will be building a system, starting with your speakers, there are many considerations. Once you have dealt with room acoustic issues, your amplification and sources will have an enormous effect on the sound. The various components have a different effect on the sound individually and collectively, and obtaining the sound that you like the best is a complicated but very rewarding process.

Even though each of us might have a different opinion and/or experience, we are all here to ~~stick our noses into your business~~ help and support you.

Nuance · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Sep 2009, 05:38 am »

Quote from: oneinthepipe on 20 Sep 2009, 05:22 am

Even though each of us might have a different opinion and/or experience, but we are all here to ~~stick our noses into your business~~ help and support you.

FidelitySeeker · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Sep 2009, 01:18 am »

I'll try to be succint!
I was trying to keep it simple, but the truth of my situation is I am building two good stereo systems. One is for family/common use (to share good audio with my daughter) and the other is for my man-cave. The catch is that I really don't want to log serious time in the man-cave until we reach empty nest status. The other part of the equation is the WAF is strong in the family room

,
whereas the man-cave is wide-open!

I started about 5 months ago negotiating decor concerns with my wife. After getting some forum assurance that quality sound could be had, a 2.1 bookshelf system is where we ended. I began the auditioning process and think I have arrived at Paradigm Signature S-1 v2 as my current champion.
Along the way, several people had suggested I try the SongSurrond bookshelf. I was looking at the Salk site and realized that if I was going to place an order with Salk it had to be for the SongTowers (by this time, I had come across and read Nuance's "journey"). That is a pretty big chunk of change. I researched the tweeter through Jim and Dennis (concluding the RT was the best choice), and I put it on the back burner. I went back to auditioning bookshelf speakers.
Throughout this time, I was keeping my ear to the ground on AudioGon, and K Shep's ST offering gave me the opportunity to pull the trigger.

So, I have two rooms. The family room will get no acoustic treatments (EQ only, if needed) and the bookshelf speakers will actually go on the bookshelf (one reason to lean towards a sealed design). (I have encouraged my wife to look for some nice tapestries she would like on the walls.) The Song Towers will go in the man-cave where they will see comparatively infrequent use. That is the default plan.

Assuming I prefer the SongTowers, the "Hail Mary" play is that during my audition period my wife will take note of the beauty of the ST's and comment that she wouldn't mind them in the family room. While a long shot, I know her tastes and the ST's in Cherry have a better chance than any other speaker I have seen.

So, plenty of key info has yet to be defined, but your responses have been pretty useful in helping me frame the decision-making process. I like to be sitting on go when the new toys come in!

As for 2.0 or 2.1, I'll try them both ways and see if the benefit justifies the cost of a sub. I've been playing with the SVS SB12-Plus long enough that I know I will need to do some bass EQ in the family room. The Sansui does have pre-amp outputs (as well as main-amp inputs), so I can add a sub there. However, I will miss out on the benefit of off-loading some bass from the ST's since there is no bass management on the amp.
As for separates, the Sansui is better than many integrated amps - with its dual mono design. I also have a 100 WPC Carver TFM-15cb which I can drive with the Sansui pre-amp, but I'm not sure if this is a better option or not?
Thanks!

K Shep · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Sep 2009, 04:32 am »

Fidelity,

You lost me at - "As for separates, the Sansui is better than many integrated amps". An integrated amp doesn't equal separates. If I were you and I just invested in a discounted pair of 3 month old ST RTs. I'd purchase an AVA amp and AVA preamp. Look here: http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/used/used.htm

Frank Van Alstine contributes here and you may follow the AVA thread. Chat with owners, like oneinthepipe. The synergy between AVA and Salk is seamless. You may pick up a pair for $1190 + tax & freight.

I don't give this type of straight forward advice and I apologize for being to forward but those STs deserve 21 century gear. You haven't shared a budget, if you have exceeded your budget then start saving up and go with the Sansui in the man-cave and the Marantz/Paradigm/SVS setup in the Family room. IMO if you put some effort and heart into the man-cave you will use it as a listening room. Address room acoustics and build a nice system.

Kirk

charmerci · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 Sep 2009, 08:11 am »

Most of those newer Marantz stereos make me want to cover my ears with their high end harshness. (And I'm someone who can listen to table top radios for hours.)

Make sure you encourage your wife to choose thick, heavy tapestries. The Latin/South American ones are nice looking and can be very inexpensive.

FidelitySeeker · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Sep 2009, 03:03 am »

Thanks everyone for your input!

Quote from: K Shep on 21 Sep 2009, 04:32 am

IMO if you put some effort and heart into the man-cave you will use it as a listening room. Address room acoustics and build a nice system.

Not to worry! I sometimes wonder if I enjoy setting things up more than realizing the benefit.
This is a matter of personal philosophy/conviction to family. In a precious few years, my daughter is likely to start socializing with peers and won't have much interest hanging with us. Until then, I don't want to make a routine of going downstairs.

K Shep · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Sep 2009, 04:22 am »

Kurt,

You sure put it into perspective. Your priorities are in the correct place. I hope we didn't rub you the wrong way and I hope I didn't shove my opinion to hard. I have an emotional bond with those speakers you own. So I want you to get the same goose bump moments that I did.

I read the specs on vintageaudio.com regarding your Sansui integrated. That old champ will drive your STs well. And you just had it tuned up. Please stay in touch and we all want to hear your impressions.

Kirk

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Sep 2009, 04:38 am »

Quote from: FidelitySeeker on 22 Sep 2009, 03:03 am

In a precious few years, my daughter is likely to start socializing with peers and won't have much interest hanging with us. Until then, I don't want to make a routine of going downstairs.

You probably won't want to make that your routine even when your daughter is socializing with peers, particularly when she is home. I have a 13 year old, a seven year old, and a six year old. Although my 13 year old is in her own world, sometimes, my man cave is our dining room and always accessible to my wife and children. My daughter isn't very interested in my audio system, but her friends like it, and the HT2-TL play some pretty amazing hip hop. My younger children enjoy music, and one listens with me and the other dances. Zybar (George) has a phenomenal system in his contiguous living/dining room, and his boys also love listening to and dancing to music. I spend a lot of time with my kids, as does George with his boys with baseball and other sports and activities. Sure, we all like our hobbies and our time alone, and I am writing this at 1239AM after everyone else in my home is asleep, but there are things that parents and children can enjoy together, and hopefully, in your home, music will one of those things, even if family members don't always enjoy the same type of music. Additionally, there isn't any reason that a man cave can't serve a variety of purposes. In my man cave, I have a bit of control about things. My wife, to a slight degree, and my kids, to a greater degree, have taken the position that it is my room, which is good thing, since the kids have practically free rein of every other part of the house, except my workroom, but including my wife and my bedroom and bathroom, the living room, family room, etc. The joy of family is not a joy to squander, and the kids come first.

FidelitySeeker · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Sep 2009, 01:09 pm »

Thanks,
Unfortunately, we have a raised ranch and my Man-Cave is downstairs (and the rest of downstairs is daylight basement/garage). Thus, it is out of circulation.
Perhaps, I can set the Salks up in the Master Bedroom. It is 14 X 20 with cathedral ceilings. Is their a strong preference as to whether the speakers face across the 14' or down the 20'?

K Shep,
No worries. It was apparent you took my image of man-cave as a seldom-used room to mean it wasn't a good space, when it is actually just too isolated for me to use much, and I needed to clarify.
Your attic listening space is an inspiration!
Interestingly I use the exact same chair as my listening chair!

It looks like Friday will be the big day!!!
The speakers should arrive Thursday. We'll have company, but I have Friday off so plan to log some listening time. The only problem with that plan is sleeping Thursday night, LOL!

Thanks,
Kurt

FidelitySeeker · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Sep 2009, 04:58 am »

Quote from: FidelitySeeker on 22 Sep 2009, 01:09 pm

Perhaps, I can set the Salks up in the Master Bedroom. It is 14 X 20 with cathedral ceilings. Is their a strong preference as to whether the speakers face across the 14' or down the 20'?

Should I take this question to another subject/thread or does it just not matter enough for anyone to have an answer?
TIA

Nuance · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Sep 2009, 06:11 am »

Quote from: FidelitySeeker on 23 Sep 2009, 04:58 am

Quote from: FidelitySeeker on 22 Sep 2009, 01:09 pm
Perhaps, I can set the Salks up in the Master Bedroom. It is 14 X 20 with cathedral ceilings. Is their a strong preference as to whether the speakers face across the 14' or down the 20'?

Should I take this question to another subject/thread or does it just not matter enough for anyone to have an answer?
TIA

There is nothing wrong with putting them in the bedroom. However, do you have a place to sit down and listen, or will you be listening from the bed? Obstacles in your bedroom that may deteriorate the sound is something to take into consideration.

As far as which wall, long or short, that's something you need to decide. Go with whichever sounds best to your ears. If you try the long wall, be sure you have enough room to let the speakers breath (away from the back and side walls) and enough room behind the listening position as not to cause a bass issue by exciting a room mode. If you are pinned all the way against the back wall you may have some major FR issues below 200Hz.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Sep 2009, 03:09 pm »

Can you provide a drawing of the room? The speakers need to be placed away from the front wall and front corners, and you need a place to listen that isn't against the back wall. Assuming that there is a bed in the master bedroom, you might just not have the space. Just to get an idea about a starting point, you might take a look at the Cardas speaker placement pages.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

K Shep · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Sep 2009, 03:59 pm »

You have great feedback from Nuance and pipe here. I was considering audio in my master bedroom and decided in ceiling speakers are the best fit. My bedroom is background music.

So my answer is, unless you have a large master where you have the ability to space them properly, in ceiling or bookshelve speakers are best for bedrooms.

Kurt,

What would help us in giving our recommendations, is to explain how you intend to use the speakers. In a surround sound application (5.1 or 7.1) with a TV? Or in a 2 channel application for serious music listening? IMO a bedroom is backgound music or TV application.

Kirk

FidelitySeeker · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 Sep 2009, 03:03 am »

I would use it as a 2.0 listening space. I think Friday is when I'll get the chance to draw up a layout. But as a general idea, the most obvious layout puts my chair sitting in the center of one of the 20' walls. My head would be 2' out from the window behind me, which offers hanging drapes for sound absorption. The speakers would have 16" open space between their back and the front wall, making for about 10 feet between the speakers and me. The speakers would sit on either side of the wardrobe (with electronics on top of it). The speakers would have 7' to 8' feet between them.
Cheers,
Kurt