[azryan]

"-Thanks for the info as Tsunami's fears are the same as mine have been.-"

I'm tellin' ya' if a dope like me can do then anyone can. Seriously... just takes a good logical brain that can plan things out and think several steps ahead. Most audiophiles seem to have that kinda mindset.

None of us burnt the fries at our job yesterday. hehe

It's not such physical labor either. I'm kinda short and only 135lbs. Each cabinet's FAR heavier and bigger than me, but the only help I needed was my buddy carrying them in with me from the garage and you pretty much need 2 people to carry any floor stading speaker just 'cuz of their size/shape.

"-One other thing I'd need is some sort of a grill cloth due to a large rambunctious dog. Any easy ways for these?-"

Hmm...
You should be able to make a grill for these I'd think. Personally for looks I'd put as few grill peg holes in as possible.
I'd think you could get away with just having 2 at the top and the bottom. Plenty of space for it.

Make the grill out of 1/2" MDF. And cut out damn near all of it so you just have a thin frame for the grill.

Then stretch/glue grill cloth over that frame and you're done.

Danny's got really cool magnets that can be hidden under veneer that you can attach a grill to but when you take it off it looks totally clean w/ no grill peg holes.

I don't know why every company doesn't do this?

The only thing I wonder about is if they'll be able to hold such a large grill in place?

Thinking about it... grill cloth covers the drivers, but really doesn't do anything to stop a crazy dog from pushing through the cloth and pushing at the cones.

At least the dog couldn't damage the planars (steel case) and the cones have at least a better chance of not getting damaged than say a dome tweeter getting dented in.

You might have to take something like chicken wire (thin hexagon I think shaped wire screen) and wrap that tight around the grill and then cover it w/ speaker cloth so your dog could NOT push into the drivers.
Guess it depends on how big and crazy your dig is.

You'd also have to be SURE that the chicken wire wouldn't resonate and make noise. I'm not sure if it would or not. I'd have to take a good close look at it.

There's an even tougher type of wire screen that's make of thicker wire shaped like thin long rectangles that might be better. Forgot the name of it. Both at Home Dept. or Lowes.

I'd probably look to slightly recess it into the frame (using the router) so it doesn't stick out on top of the frame 'cuz then it wouldn't show through the grill cloth.

If you just wrapped it around a frame and then wrapped grill cloth over that -you'd probably see the wire mesh pattern and it would look cheesy.

Does that make any sense?

"-One more question: How's the bass from say 25hz on up as far as weight and articulation? I require excellent bass due to being used to some VMPS speakers I own that basically have the larger subs built in.-"

The articulation -if you basically mean speed and detail -it's awesome esp. with how it loads the room in a line and the motor strength and quick speed of those 6" woofers.

For weight... 18 6" large magnet woofers have a LOT of weight.

They don't have the travel of a subwoofer driver, but they have a huge total area and very high effi.

If I'm not screwing this idea up... (Danny or someone correct me if I'm wrong) I think this makes each speaker act something like ~25" cone with a MASSIVE magnet to control it... just not a huge amount of travel. You don't need the travel though when you have the area and effi.

Again... I might be describing that wrong though?

Real world speaking...

I've got a Chinese drum track (like those HUGE Japanese Taiko drums) from Burmester's 3rd Ref. CD and it really hammers out the deep bass. You can feel it hard in your chest (I know I've seen Danny mention Blue Man Group several times too and they have the same deep loud bass in their music).
When the bass is hammering and can feel the air coming out the 4 flared 4" ports you can look sideways at the speaker's face and see that each woofer is hardly moving at all.
Not even close to it's travel limit and never out of it's magnetic gap.

Playing something not even close to that loud and deep on my Newforms you can easily see those dual Scan Speak drivers moving like crazy and they have about the longest travel I've seen on a 7" driver.

The low end extension is going to depend on how you place 'em in the room and the size/shape of the room itself.

I've got a large room vaulted ceiling and 17.5' x 23' and the Alphas far from the walls. Out there it goes deep but it's not what I can do with my dual 15" corner loaded Tempests.

The RM-40's I heard in town didn't come close to that depth of bass, but they were even further away from the wall (but in a smaller more easily pressurized room).

Eric who sold those 40's and just got RMX's is talking about how the bass is a lot better than the 40's but his pics show his X's are VERY close to the wall now so I'm thinking that's making the most diff.

But you still have the planars playing so low that you won't 'feel' any weight to the broad range they're playing.

He called the bass impact of the Alphas on Dire Strait's 'Priv. Investigations'  'viceral' when the drums come in at the end. We hadn't heard that from the 40's as he had them set.

I'm sure I could put the Alphas 1.5' from the walls and REALLY boost that bottom end. Probably making it way out of balance. It sounds great to me as is though.

I think you'll have to play with that set-up when you finish them, but I think you'll get all the depth and weight you want with really quick speed when they're set the way you want them.

I don't know how you have your VMPS subs set up, but it's a tricky issue as I'm sure you know.
Dual VMPS subs should be better than the bass in most if not any VMPS speaker.
You could always use them w/ the Alphas too.

Deep bass is like a totally diff. animal than the whole rest of the audible freq. range and its just so hard to do it all in main speakers or optimally get both plus more x-overs in the mix etc..

Bass is usually best corner loaded getting a effi. boost from the corner and tripping up the most room modes while EVERYTHING else is usually best as far as possible from any walls so you get the least reflected energy.

I never use my subs except for movies and for anything but the CRAZY DVD's like Star Wars or anything from Pixar (those guys are nuts for insane bass!) the subs would be pointless but it's good to get the bass off the surrounds and gives the mains more amp power having that bass removed.
Plus I had the subs before the Alphas so might as well use 'em 'eh?

[warnerwh]

Thank you for the info Azryan.  I'm using VMPS Supertower/R SE speakers presently, no subs, just four 15's and two ten's to handle the bass and it is excellent. Bass is very important to me.  

The magnet idea is an excellent one. Just need to keep my dogs nose off of those planars as they're pretty fragile.  

These are at the top of my list now.

[OBF]

warnerwh,

I think the best idea is for you to build a pair of these so I can come up and listen to them.  

[warnerwh]

Actually I'm going to wait and see what Danny comes up with using the BG 10's. I think he may need a tweeter and is using different woofers. I could go with the Alpha's but they're just too tall but I may get impatient and don't think I could go wrong. I already have behemoths in my living room with is only 17 x 18 so it doesn't bother me.You are more than welcome to check out whatever I end up with.  I was getting desperate to find a speaker that would fit the bill for me and almost decided to build them myself, then I started to learn how complicated it is.  The good part is I learned of these. If anybody has the Alpha's in the NW please let me know.

[warnerwh]

Can the Alpha's have the drivers mounted on a flush surface or is that a problem. Just looking at pics of the cabinets on the website and notice that the holes are set in a bit, just one more thing I've never done.

[azryan]

"-Just need to keep my dogs nose off of those planars as they're pretty fragile.-"

The actual driven sheet is fragile but it's behind the steel case. It's not the same as VMPS's planars.

Your dog wouldn't be able to get into the holes to damage the driven membrane unless his nose was very hummingbird-like.

You could have a little kid pawing at the planars too and not damage them unless they jammed a crayon into a hole or something which they could do to any driver there is.
hehe

"-Can the Alpha's have the drivers mounted on a flush surface or is that a problem.-"

I think that'd change the speaker and Danny I think had told me they need to be flush mounted.

His own drivers in the A/V's have frames designed to be surface mounted. Maybe he'll look to do that on a 'next line kit', butI personally think flush mounted looks nicer.

Keeps the planar and woofer voice coil closer to the same plane too.

"-Just looking at pics of the cabinets on the website and notice that the holes are set in a bit, just one more thing I've never done.-"

It's really easy. You use the same router straight cut bit and circle jig guide as you would to cut out the driver holes. You just make an extra pass. Takes an extra 15 min. per cabinet. No big deal.

My wife did some of those cuts. The router's locked to the exact depth you need and attached to the circle guide so you can do it blindfolded and not mess it up -though I didn't tell her that.

"-Actually I'm going to wait and see what Danny comes up with using the BG 10's. I think he may need a tweeter-"

You mean like your VMPS's planars need?

They are VERY diff. drivers.
A lot of people I think see them as about the same but the VMPS play lower so are better. That's not the whole picture at all.

The VMPS planar is much wider so will begin to beam much lower freq. Plus doesn't have the top end response of the Neo 8 so for both those reasons you have to add more x-over parts and an extra driver to cover that top octave (spiral tweeter) / octave and a half (FST ribbon).

It's a far lower effi. driver too. ~86db I think Brian posted and the Neo 8's are 93db.

Plus then you'd be mating a point source to a line source which has it's own issues to deal with.
I asked this same question to Danny before I chose the Alphas so I understand someone else thinking the same thing -if that's what you mean. If not... then what do you mean? hehe

The Alphas only roll off the very top 1/4 octave. I've got Newform's ribbons here and they are flat to 20kHz and comparing the two there's nothing missing. I can hear past 20kHz too. It's not an issue at all IMO.

I think that's been the opinion of everyone too who's posted about hearing the Alphas.

It'd be nice if the Neo 10's live up to what I'm sure Danny hopes them to be but we'll all just have to wait and see. There's no 'next line' design at all now so someone waiting for it should probably not care if they have new speakers for a loooong time. Which may be the position you're in so it's totally cool with me if you do want to wait.

I wouldn't 'demand' you don't wait. I'd suggest it though. hehe

That'd be great if the Neo 10 could play even lower and be even more prefect on the very top end but who knows.

"-and is using different woofers."

I'm not sure about your point of saying this?

The Alpha's line of woofers is outstanding. Could there be better? Sure.

I'm sure everyone incl. Danny hopes his 'next line' is better than his last line (or he wouldn't come out with a next one if it was worse right?) but what are you saying about the current woofers?

Just that he'll probably use diff. woofers doesn't in itself say anything bad about the current ones.

If he used say 6 Neo 10's instead of 8 Neo 8's the effi. would be diff. He'd probably have to use diff drivers for that reason alone.

He doesn't seem to like to add more x-over junk to pad down the drivers if he doesn't have to.

"-I could go with the Alpha's but they're just too tall-"

You can only make a line source so short. How tall are your current speakers? Those are MUUUUUCH wider too?

"-I was getting desperate to find a speaker that would fit the bill for me and almost decided to build them myself, then I started to learn how complicated it is.-"

What is your 'bill' you're looking to fill for a next speaker and what don't you get from your current ones?
And what doesn't make that next speaker the Alphas? -not that I'm telling you to buy Alphas, just want to hear what you're basing your choices on.

Maybe it can be explained away for you like the speaker grill thing and building details etc...?

What do you still think is complicated about building these speakers?

It's not that hard if you can use a ruler and cutting guides like a straight edge and circle jig.
Just cut all the parts to the right measurment and glue it up with some clamps and you're done.

The x-overs take almost no time to solder.

The wiring of all the drivers takes time but it's just a matter of connecting the dots according to Danny's pretty clear drawing.

I wired all the drivers in one night (I recommend you not do it at night though)... and in my living room (which was also pretty stupid, but it worked fine hehe) so I could just tip up the finished speakers.

[EProvenzano]

I just mocked up a few card board boxes at the same dimensions of the Alphas and they are suprisingly smaller than I invisioned.

The wife still said NO WAY!. Damn it! I think I'd need to add a $500 jewlery budget so I could get the ok...that totaly blows the bank!

If I could choose, I'd still prefer for the speakers to be about 3-5 inches shorter and an inch or two narrower. I know this doesn't sound like much but....I cut apart the card board boxes and made them 1.5 inches narrower and 3 inches shorter and the wife said...'Better...'

'Better' is a great thing to hear!

I wonder if these speakers are doable with a line of 5" drivers??? That would cut the baffle down at least 1 inch.

Sure wish I was in Danny's shoes....my imagination is stirring...Good luck!

EP

[warnerwh]

Well Azryan you're making it much easier for me, thanks.  

What I have in mind is something that won't be replaced for a long time. The speakers I have now have the old Dynaribbon mids not the BG or Neo ribbons and Scanspeak (9300) tweeters of a few years ago.  I've heard the RM 40's and the mids through highs is what I'd like to match with the bass I have now, which is excellent and the 40's just didn't quite get there for me, otherwise it'd be a no brainer. It just isn't worth the risk to me to spend that much on the 40's and then have to sell them.  Selling the ones I have will be no easy chore either at 220lbs each. These speakers do sound pretty good and if I hadn't heard the midrange and highs on the 40's the idea of trying different speakers wouldn't be happening.

 Without hearing other speakers I know that midrange/tweeter range is world class. I suspect the Alpha's can fill the bill but I'd hate to find out that Danny's new design was much better and for about the same money.
Besides I just told my girlfriend I was done upgrading(everything but speakers), the same thing I said a year ago she reminds me.  

In the meantime I haven't found anything else that can do so well for the money and even though I've never heard the Alpha's an educated guess tells me they're pretty close to what I need.

[JohnR]

Hi folks, back again    Well I didn't mean to start speculation on what Danny's coming up with next! For me this is just a DIY project, I don't expect to produce anything as good as the Alphas but hey, it's all part of the fun.

So, getting back to these speakers, which I should probably *not* call the mini-Alphas for the reason I just said... On the size, the baffle can't be much narrower than 10". The array is about 48" tall, so supposing I put the center about ear height, say 40", then that's 64" tall. A quick spreadsheet calc says that allowing for the ribbon cavity and lots of bracing, the volume of a 10" deep box is about 56 liters, or 7 liters per driver, bang on the required amount

The next question for me would be should I use the M130-16 instead? That would give me an 8 ohm speaker, with a bit less sensitivity and about 10 Hz lower f3.

[JohnR]

Doh! If I really wanted an 8 ohm speaker I could use 9 M130s per side anyway. Hm.

[Hank]

warnerwh, I built Danny's Alpha cabinets, and as azryan noted, routing the insets is not difficult - just plan, measure twice and go for it.  You can see the cabinets on the second page of my crude website:
http://www.geocities.com/hankbond1/index
What's difficult about these cabinest is the size and weight - tough if you have no help.

[RAW]

Doing the xover with a little help from Danny.
Will get done soon.

[Ric Schultz]

FYI, Brian Cheney lists the VMPS neo as having 88db sensitivity.  I have played with them a lot and think they are more than that.  I have to pad the neo about 4 db to match the 7 incher in the 626R.  He rates the sensitivity of the whole speaker at 90db (not sure if this is accurate, I think it is lower than this).  My sense is that the VMPS neo is more like 90db.  Maybe I will measure it this week and see.

Anotherwords, if the neo is 88db sensitivity and I am padding it about 4 db then the whole speaker would be 84db sensitive.....don't think so.

[wshuff]

Raw, that's pretty cool looking.  What are the dimensions?  Is it to be used with a stand?

[JohnR]

Mini ALPHA is here.

Half-pint!! Well, I guess I really have to not call my speakers mini-Alphas now

[warnerwh]

How do you guys know where to cut the holes after you wrap the whole thing in veneer? I mean it seems like you may be an eighth of an inch off and that wouldn't look so good.  RAW keep us posted on your mini Alpha. Now if we could get one that's in between.

[RAW]

Finished it today with a few more calls to Danny.Darn phone bill for these lines is a mint
Many thanks to Danny for the help.
The over all design turned out very well for those looking at a cost on the filters that will be up to Danny if you want Sonicaps and Foils.
I have the values I did and will pass them on to Danny for all his help.
Other than that I can supply the finished crossovers as well as the complete driver kit .Thanks to Bob at CSS.Cost for the filter will be more than the Alphas as a lot of values are very large.




Few things i learned.
Mic position very very tricky.
Move the mic up or down 1/4" and you have complete different results.
And comb filter issues are a concern with measurments.
So I stuck with a mic position that had little comb filtering issues and shot measurments from that point.

[azryan]

Man, I musta totally missed you posting that mini-Alpha pic back in Jan.

Very nice veener! Glad I didn't miss seeing 'em.

So what's your intentions for these minis?

[pjchappy]

That is pretty cool. . .what are it's dimensions?  It's so great to have people like Danny here on AC that would just help w/ the x-over, etc. on his own time.  Great service, great products!


p

[RAW]

Few things
I did the design for a customer.
He has built the cabinets.Fronts are full size these are his surround speakers.

Intention to put up the kit once I get the prices in place for the filters.
Bob,Danny and I work hand and hand.
Bob (CSS) has a few hundred of these drivers still in Canada.
There is the demand for a smaller ALPHA array.And I think this will do just fine.

Size of the cabinet ,half that of the Alpha line.
Built to Danny,Bob's plans.

Al