[Mr Content]

I have been playing around with bass drivers for a about the last year or so. I have been trying to get the most  articulate sound, while maintaining a musical bass . I tried a few dedicated sub driver as bass drivers, but didn't like them as much as a dedicated bass driver. Currently I have not been able to best my Vifa 10" in a isobaric config, 66ltr enclosure.

So what is your fav. bass driver, and how have you used it in your system.

Mr C

[Ken Arrow]

HI,

I do not have a lot of experience with different bass drivers, I came from stand mounters plus sub to my current system.

Having said that, I also use Vifa 10' drivers in Onken style cabinets to complement the speed of my Lowther horns... with variable cross over point and independent amplification I find them integrating well and providing a tuneful and when required substantial bass response.


Cheers,

Ken

[JoshK]

If I may,

It might help to first define your goals and the range over which you want to use the bass driver.  I am assuming you are after a woofer, and not a sub?  What range of frequencies do you wish to cover?  What are you mating this with (it matters for a number of reasons)? 

The best driver for one application won't be the best for another, so it isn't easy to offer advice in a vacuum.

Are you building the system yourself?  Are you planning to design passive crossovers or use active solutions?  Do you have measurement gear? 

Josh

[Mr Content]

Josh, I am not looking for any, I have about 15 pairs, I like the Vifa's. I was just interested to see what others are using, and why

Mr C

[Mr Content]

HI,

I do not have a lot of experience with different bass drivers, I came from stand mounters plus sub to my current system.

Having said that, I also use Vifa 10' drivers in Onken style cabinets to complement the speed of my Lowther horns... with variable cross over point and independent amplification I find them integrating well and providing a tuneful and when required substantial bass response.


Cheers,

Ken

Hi Ken, yes the Vifa's seem very fast when loaded properly, I run mine with some B200's in OB.

Mr C aa

[terry j]

PHL 7030.

not everyone can use them...18 inch.

they don't go low (i can only get them down to 30 hz at most)

have never heard better bass, ever.

well, never felt better bass either.

the elusive *punch* in the chest.

[Mr Content]

Nice terry j. I have never played with anything larger than 12", although I do have a pair of Hawthorne 15 Augies, but have never set them up. I have read that larger driver would not need to travel as far for the same levels, which I suppose in theory, should keep distortion down.

How do you have them loaded?

Mr C

[terry j]

Nice terry j. I have never played with anything larger than 12", although I do have a pair of Hawthorne 15 Augies, but have never set them up. I have read that larger driver would not need to travel as far for the same levels, which I suppose in theory, should keep distortion down.

How do you have them loaded?

Mr C

 sealed cab, made of concrete! Have posted a few pics before, prob in the where are you thread or sumthin






Pity that is a crappy indoor shot, very washed out. Must get a mate into photography to take a decent shot.

here is a better one, but only from the back. Still, it shows it in a more flattering way...at least the colours are a little more balanced







Re the travel observation, these have an xmax of around 8mm only. I assure you, it does not seem to be an inhibiting factor!

This only occurred to me last night, in a few weeks the bathurst races are on (obviously I am in bathurst) and so it is the annual gtg (from sna basically) and guys come from all over australia and stay the weekend here (plenty of room etc)

some head off to the races during the day, others take it easy, whatever. all food is bbq (so the missus doesn't have to do anything) and of course nights is just chinwag and music and a few cold ones.

This year, in addition to my system (which is obviously permanently here!!) there will be a valve/single driver system coming up from melb, and there will also be a 'great unveiling' of aslan acoustics latest offering (two 15's, same mid as mine and an AMT tweeter, all active).

I like the idea of all that. It means if anyone wants to listen to jazz audiophile shit, or just jazz, or just audiophile shit,  then I don't have to be subjected to it!! haha. (If I hear Rebecca Pigeon one more time!!arrggghhh )

An invitation is open to anyone if they ever feel the urge to meet fellow stereo enthusiasts (I refuse to use the word audiophile, *they* are anathema to me!) so prefer music/stereo lovers.

(Audiophiles can stay at home and cuddle their speaker cables and power cords for all I care)

People from diyaudio have also made it out and made firm friendships, so it is in no way restricted to sna.

Just thought I'd mention it if any from this forum would also enjoy either a weekend stay (and make new friends) or even a day trip from the sydneysiders if they would prefer.

I won't be offended if there is no interest btw, just running it up the flagpole as an FYI and see if there are any salutes.

If there were interest, then happy to make a new thread to maximise the chances of aussie circle guys catching it.

Or not, I'm easy.

(hahaha, then each will be able to evaluate for themselves my response to the thrad topic)

[JohnR]

Hi Terry, I'd love to come over at some point during that weekend. Not absolutely 100% sure at this point but can't see any reason I can't be up in Bx that weekend.

Hey, a new thread couldn't hurt

[terry j]

Hi Terry, I'd love to come over at some point during that weekend. Not absolutely 100% sure at this point but can't see any reason I can't be up in Bx that weekend.

Hey, a new thread couldn't hurt

Oh hi John, I wondered if you were the 'yetholme' guy, so went and checked. Ha, I forgot the bit about Kelso and your parents!

Well, you know what the oldies say doncha. 'The kids never visit or ring'..well here's your chance to have a good music weekend AND earn those needed brownie points!

yeah we can hear the race too, and we're in georges plains!

started those subs yet??

Guess I gotta ask, has there been an aussie circle gtg yet?? If not, heck now's as good a time as any to get one started.

Happy for a new thread, might just wait for Mr Content to see it and give his 'blessing', heck he can cut and paste and start the thread himself?

Hmm, newcastle is not that far really, shall we shame him into coming too?? Funny, N/castle seems to be a real hotbed of 'well known' diy guys, know of three off the top of my head.

weather? Lack of any thing else interesting in the area? the water? who knows.

BUT, they seem to have one thing in common, an extreme reluctance to leave the place and actually get out to these types of things. think I can talk any of these n/castle blokes into coming?

Mr content can be the one to break the mold.

Excellent John, hope you can work it and make it happen. Even tho nothing in life is certain, I can say with quite a bit of confidence that you will enjoy yourself.

I mean, let's face it. You wouldn't be on an audio forum if you were not interested and liked discussing it! What's one step better than that??

Doing it in person and meeting face to face those with common interests, and best of all (my fav) taking the opportunity to hear other peoples systems.

mix in few cold ones, recipe for a great time.

Guess you could always crash at kelso, but feel free to avail y/self of a place to crash here. (get in soon, and if you are bringing the missus then you automatically snaffle a double bed!! Why give it to a single snoring yobbo when it is less wasteful to give it to a couple?)

[Mr Content]

Hey Terry feel free to start a thread, not my circle, OUR circle. Hey we have never been to Bathurst,. But  we have a few kids, so we would need to bring a tent and setup in your backyard, or something. Sounds like a good idea, I could bring a nice pair of open baffle speakers for a listen, a couple of diy tube amps..
 Start the thread and lets see what interest we get.

Mr C

[terry j]

Hey Terry feel free to start a thread, not my circle, OUR circle. Hey we have never been to Bathurst,. But  we have a few kids, so we would need to bring a tent and setup in your backyard, or something. Sounds like a good idea, I could bring a nice pair of open baffle speakers for a listen, a couple of diy tube amps..
 Start the thread and lets see what interest we get.

Mr C

hey Mr C, hmm you need to pitch a tent? Let me guess, the missus has a headache? oops, maybe that gave away the tenor of the weekend....

Start again. You need to pitch a tent? No wuckas, after all we are on sixteen acres, so I'm sure we can find the space.

Does this mean it could be the inaugral audio circle (aussie) gtg?

Will start a thread tomorrow then, as you say see what interest evolves.

No mattter the interest, you (and family) plus John are pencilled in ok?

Both have a chat with they who must be obeyed, and fingers crossed.

[jules]

Terry, that's a really interesting speaker. On the face of it, the PHL looks like overkill but I'm using some smaller 6" PHLs in MTM configuration and I've always considered them to be more like a 4" driver in respect of their short travel and the amount of air they move. They don't go too low but they do mid very well.

I guess your 18" PHLs are moving about the same amount of air as a 10" or 12" with twice the travel. Short travel speakers often get bad-mouthed when they're compared on the basis of similar diameters but if the comparison is between drivers that move the same amount of air it's a bit more real.

Do you have any views on the relative difference of sound quality when your comparing a narrow column of air being moved by a long throw driver with a broader column of air being moved by a short throw driver? [or perhaps I should just ask you how you came to create that design  ?]

jules 

[terry j]

Two PHLs and a Raven in D Apollito eh? Feeling psychic this morning....Pat have anything to do with that?

Terry, that's a really interesting speaker. On the face of it, the PHL looks like overkill but I'm using some smaller 6" PHLs in MTM configuration and I've always considered them to be more like a 4" driver in respect of their short travel and the amount of air they move. They don't go too low but they do mid very well.

Overkill, only in the looks department I guess. Otherwise, is there such a thing as overkill?!

In my dreams I see two of these per side....then we hit into potential problems of physically offset drivers both working up to 200 hz (the x-over point). These mids can go lower (down to 50 in a ported box for example) but as the bass drivers are the undisputed start of the show, why limit what they do?

Compromises and swings and roundabouts, always.

I guess your 18" PHLs are moving about the same amount of air as a 10" or 12" with twice the travel. Short travel speakers often get bad-mouthed when they're compared on the basis of similar diameters but if the comparison is between drivers that move the same amount of air it's a bit more real.

Let's work it out. Mine have a SA of 9*2=81 pi.

A twelve has 6*6=36 pi. A ten is 25 pi. So, for your illustration close enough would be two thirteens, or a thirteen with twice the throw if we talk volume moved.

So you were in the ballpark.

BUT...

Do you have any views on the relative difference of sound quality when your comparing a narrow column of air being moved by a long throw driver with a broader column of air being moved by a short throw driver? [or perhaps I should just ask you how you came to create that design  ?]

jules

I sure do.

There is simply NO comparison! It is one of the perennial questions I have whenever we compare my bass to other bass.

What IS it that seperates this bass from every other bass out there?

It's odd. We can look at it rationally as we just did, yet it is not the answer.


This is kinda my response, I had changed quite a few things and didn't recalibrate etc, but the essential point is that they don't go low. (it is very rough in the bass, I would normally have it to within one or two db below 200 hz, can't remember what was going on back then or what I'd changed)

"drop like a stone'' below 35 hz.

So, just looking at that response (with your viewpoint in mind) we'd be justified in saying 'so what?'. And I agree, it does not look like these would do anything a normal audiophile ten (or even eight!!) would not do.

Indeed, you may falsely conclude you would want the driver that goes lower!!

And not only would that be a mistake, it would be a very sad mistake indeed.

There is a vast gulf that exists between these and any other bass I've heard...

that is why this is such an interesting question to me. My thoughts on my bass are not a case of 'proud father' syndrome, or me having a blind spot to faults that exist.

I am annoyed a little that the american military appropriated this phrase, as it is so apt when describing peoples response to hearing my system.

Shock and Awe.

One thing I suspect that is part of the answer, these reproduce the leading edge of the wave, the transient start of the signal, those complex portions that make up the 'percussive' sound. The thing about percussion is the attack, that initial 'bang' of the wave.

All drivers will get the main portion done, the overall shape etc, enough to give you the idea of what is going on, but it is the detail these bring out in that that is outstanding.

Ha, a bit like looking at a fully smoothed graph and an unsmoothed one? All can do the 'smoothed', these can show the detail in the 'unsmoothed'.

If that made sense.

there has gotta be other differences...you simply cannot leave out the contribution of the deqx in all of this for example....it's just that I cannot reconcile """""your""""" thinking above which makes 'sense' with the differences heard.

You can maybe understand why this is such a fascinating question for me? so excuse the wordy reply ok??

Of course, talk is cheap. Most audiophiles (blehh) will rave about how good their system is, how revealing, no veils on those naked singers etc (which is good, as long as you are not listening to ZZ Top!) but the proof is always in the listening.

So the only way for anyone to grasp what I am saying is to hear it for themselves.

And you may not agree with me.

nahh

[jules]

Terry,

thanks for the great reply. If it hadn't been for the fact the you're using a PHL my thinking might have been that it was overkill but I assumed that the specs of the 18" are like those of other PHLs [low Qts,  high efficiency, a magnet the size of a small football field and high BL] and figured the speaker probably had a strong rationale to its design.

There is simply NO comparison! It is one of the perennial questions I have whenever we compare my bass to other bass.

That dramatic eh?!

One thing I suspect that is part of the answer, these reproduce the leading edge of the wave, the transient start of the signal, those complex portions that make up the 'percussive' sound. The thing about percussion is the attack, that initial 'bang' of the wave.

All drivers will get the main portion done, the overall shape etc, enough to give you the idea of what is going on, but it is the detail these bring out in that that is outstanding.

The specs make them dynamic/details drivers don't they but the wizard move has been to use that massive diameter to make up for what is usually the weakness of short travel. Do you think the cone weight/strength might be the limiter as far as bass goes? I don't say that as a criticism but it looks like the trade-off.

Two PHLs and a Raven in D Apollito eh? Feeling psychic this morning....Pat have anything to do with that?

Very Close  ! They're a parts only kit from Zalytron in the US. I think Pat gets some of his stuff from there. I don't like the xovers all that much but a re-design is beyond my skills.

jules

[JohnR]

As far as volume displacement goes, those would be the equivalent of a 12" with 20mm Xmax. Which takes you into sub territory. The PHLs have high sensitivity and for a given output will move much less, so less of the controversial "doppler distortion." And look at the response curve! I wouldn't call 8mm of Xmax on that type of driver a "weakness."

[terry j]

Terry,

thanks for the great reply. If it hadn't been for the fact the you're using a PHL my thinking might have been that it was overkill but I assumed that the specs of the 18" are like those of other PHLs [low Qts,  high efficiency, a magnet the size of a small football field and high BL] and figured the speaker probably had a strong rationale to its design.

I like the line on the PHL website about my drivers (7030)

something like 'sensitivity sacrificed over sound quality'.....then lists them as 97 db efficient or whatever!!

That dramatic eh?!

A couple of points. It is hard to grasp the magnitude of the difference. A lot of that I suspect comes from the audiophile (washing washing) review world.

Everything is a major change, dramatic improvement (or disappointment), no grey areas no uncertainties. Every component has a signature and makes a change.

Absolute rubbish, once you take into account even the most basic steps of obscuring identity and matching levels.

Anyway, so here is me saying there is a vast gulf between my bass and other bass. We all have in our heads the concept of 'vast change' (which is really quite minor) from reviews, -phew notice I managed to keep the word audiophile out of that?...arrggghh, washing washing- ...so when you hear me say this... and there really IS a vast gulf between this bass and other bass...as I say shock and awe.

Please don't get the idea that I am sitting here stroking my ego, but equally I am being honest in trying to get across the magnitude of the difference. So whilst it is very uncool to falsely brag, it is equally self defeating to be falsely modest, so walking a thin line here.

The single most common comment about my system when people hear it is 'it is not an audiophile system' and strangely enough the wording is pretty well identical between people! funny that.

And the comment is never dismissive or a put down, but a genuine compliment.

It makes me proud! (given my obvious disdain for audiophile systems...arrggghh, washing washing)

The specs make them dynamic/details drivers don't they but the wizard move has been to use that massive diameter to make up for what is usually the weakness of short travel. Do you think the cone weight/strength might be the limiter as far as bass goes? I don't say that as a criticism but it looks like the trade-off.

I'm not quite sure of your exact question.

I know and understand analytically your 'concern' about the limited xmax, but we simply cannot push them too far! Another of the many things that we just cannot work out about them.

To be frank (hahaha, inside joke there...my system was christened the frankenspeakers by others due to the old boxes and how they looked...so they were just 'the franks' before, now they are known as 'the new franks') we simply have not found the limits of these drivers!

I know of two independent attempts that 'tried to get the franken bass' using different drivers. In other words, they heard mine, were enthused and went out to duplicate this bass.

Both of these attempts used twin fifteens a side, from reputable manufacturers that carries rave au******ile reviews, phew did it that time, and they did not even come close.

Unfortunately one was a good friend with a fantastic system and 'diy seemed easy'...he sold all of his very expensive drivers imported from the states in disgust and at a very steep loss, and gave up.

It was heartbreaking for both he and me. I had even offered to drive mine down to melb and put them in his room so he could rule these in or out, and he went with other drivers and failed. Very sad.

So, another part of the mystery eh? You would 'just think' that two fifteens should be up to scratch. Nope.

It is a mysterious beast that's for sure!!

Very Close  ! They're a parts only kit from Zalytron in the US. I don't like the xovers all that much but a re-design is beyond my skills.

ahh, go active man!

It may seem odd that I talk about it this much. It is not so much the mysteries we have uncovered, or the 'fantastic chest punching' bass they can give, it goes much deeper in the ramifications.

My big thing in audio is listener envelopment. My soundstage is about (who knows without a protractor?) 150 degrees wide, god knows how high (seventeen feet ceilings might help there heh heh) and you are simply immersed in the sound, it washes all over and around you like waves in the ocean.

Only just recently I realised how much of that impression comes from the bass! So it is not me raving about how MUCH bass there is, or how low they go, but how much of a contribution it makes to the listener immersion.

Did that distinction come thru?

Oh hi John, see you just posted. Hope you have become intrigued enough that it tips the decision in favour of making it out in a few weeks!

Even if you disagree with me (nahh!) it will be a fun weekend...they always are. (and it is funny how fast it goes )

[jules]

The single most common comment about my system when people hear it is 'it is not an audiophile system' and strangely enough the wording is pretty well identical between people! funny that.

And the comment is never dismissive or a put down, but a genuine compliment.

Interesting isn't it, pretty much all the live music we listen to comes courtesy of professional drivers with the characteristics of the PHLs you're using here so what you're doing is arguably a better representation of a live performance than the drivers commonly selected for hi fi.

jules

ps I must have worded things badly. I don't see the 8mm Xmax as a problem.

[56oval]

Hopefully the pair of 15" PHL 5021 drivers .

Cheers

[terry j]

'cmon malcolm, read the initial post!! What and how have you USED it!!

afraid hope and fingers crossed don't count hahaha.

So what did you settle on? 3 or 4 way. And the boxes must be assembled yet, if so show some pics yeah? Heck, give a description in the showcase thingy or whatever, I can't remember the details you settled on...let's face it you were worse than any woman I have ever known in not being able to make your mind up!!!

Anyway, seeing as how you are a 'purist' bloke (unlike me, HA! muck about with that precious audio signal as much as I like!! hehehe) and are basically building it around tubes and transformers (right?), what design did Pat come up with for using these bass drivers?

What has he done to get them low w/out eq? And what does he think they will reach?

Good to chat with you again mate.