Is it mostly power supply?

Stu Pitt · « **Reply #20 on:** 9 Sep 2009, 12:53 am »

I had the Panasonic XR55 receiver in my home and hated it. That was the one everyone was raving about when it came out. My wife summed it up best when she said it sounds annoying. Tone was way off to my ears, especially in voices. It had a respectable amount of power, but it didn't matter to me. If the first watt sucks, why have 99 more? A THD rating of .9% is a bit high if you ask me. Knowing Panasonic's way of doing things, their specs are probably best case scenario. 100x7 into 6 ohms at .9% THD shouldn't really be trusted. What frequency was that at, or is that an average over 20-20k hz? Most companies manipulate rate their specs to help sell gear.

As you said, not all watts are created equal. I've heard lower wattage amps run circles around higher wattage ones. When I had the XR55, I also had a NAD 320BEE (50 watts). The 320BEE ran circles around it. The XR55 went a db or 2 louder (not scientificlly measured), but that doesn't mean it sounded better. They 320BEE retailed for $400, so it wasn't a night and day price difference.

If you want to hear how powerful a lower wattage integrated amp can sound, listen to a Naim Nait 5i (50 watts) or a Bryston B60 (60 watts). There are a ton more, I'm just throwing out the first 2 that came to mind.

As far as better power going into the receiver, I doubt it'll help much. I wouldn't waste time replacing caps, somehow using battery power, etc. I'd instead look into a better integrated amp/receiver.

A lot more integrateds are have internal DACs available. In addition to what you named, the Naim SuperNait and Unity, Bryston B60 and B100, and SimAudio integrateds have them. All these sound phenominal to my ears. It depends on preference and budget.

The Peach Tree integrateds have a DAC, but I haven't heard them, so no comment.

Don't limit yourself to an integrated amp with an internal DAC. There are a ton of excellent sounding integtareds without DACs, and a ton of great sounding external DACs out there.

Your Emerald Physics deserve a far better amp and source than you're currently using IMO. I think more power from the Panasonic won't be the answer, nor will a better Emeral Physic. The best any speaker can do is reproduce what its given. No speaker will fixed a bad signal, nor should it.

Sorry if I'm bashing the Panasonic.

As to the original topic, upgraded power supplies can make a very good improvement, provided the gear is good to begin with. Naim and Cyrus are great examples of companies that sell upgraded external power supplies. Turntables also benefit a lot of external power supplies.

wilsynet · « **Reply #21 on:** 9 Sep 2009, 06:56 pm »

I have not heard the Panasonic XR55 HT receiver or its cousins. In my experience, an HT receiver does not do 2-channel audio very well compared to purpose built 2-channel components. Even if the XR55 is leaps and bounds ahead of other HT receivers, my guess is that it would still fall far short of even budget oriented 2-channel components. The guys on AVS may have been extolling its virtues, but I wonder if the guys here were also extolling its virtues.

I agree with Stu: your speakers deserve better amplification and better source. I don't have much in the way of recommendations for you as I'm more into high efficiency speakers paired with low powered amplifiers. As I understand, your speakers demand a high powered amplifier, so you may want to look at offerings by Bryston or Channel Islands or AVA who all sponsor circles here.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but if it's any consolation, it isn't what I wanted to hear either a few years ago, and I'm a lot happier with my system now than I was back then.

cloudbaseracer · « **Reply #22 on:** 9 Sep 2009, 07:58 pm »

Stu & Wilsynet,

Thanks for your time. I spoke with Wayne at Boulder Cable today because I know he used to do mods on the Panasonic amps. He told me that he is using his modified XR-57 extensively and with great results. For him it replaced a Lexicon pre and a Parasound amp. He is delighted with the system but only uses it in his home theater set-up. Wayne feels that the Panasonics are better than ANYTHING you could get as a receiver set-up from Denon, Marantz, Pioneer etc. This seems to be inline with the reviews I have seen. He said his 2 channel rig changes too often to be of any value however with my quest. Basically he says the amps are worth the mods but do require an outlay of cash. He is not familiar with the XR-700 that I have and would have to do an inspection just to see what changes are warranted- in relation to the earlier models he has modded.

I appreciate the input you have given and you guys bring me to the main place I started which is the dilemma of which way to go with my system. It is too bad that I am so interested in the "all digital" format. I am so interested in the simplicity of it that I may be hurting myself in the long run.

One more interesting thing Wayne mentioned was changing out the power cords to something with IEC connections and that can send some adequate current. He said this would help a great deal. Seems to be a cheap initial upgrade.

Wilsynet- just curious what is the standard consideration to be high efficiency speakers? Do you have a number you shoot for?

Stu- I told Wayne about the .9% THD and he said that stuff really doesn't matter and not to worry about that.

I believe I have the obsessive disease most all on here share. It makes me pine for optimization and an unattainable holy grail! I believe at this point I will just get the CS2.3's and then see what that "reveals".

For the record- I am not a big proponent of receivers and would prefer separates so any changes to the components would be at minimum 2 stereo amps, a pre-amp and an external DAC. I don't believe I can better/supplant the Panasonic receiver through another one-box unit.

James

wilsynet · « **Reply #23 on:** 9 Sep 2009, 11:21 pm »

High efficiency to me is something in the ~95db efficiency and above range. Which I understand the CS2 gives you, but the 100db efficiency rating is in the tweeter and you have to biamp the bass. I admit that bi-amping and having external crossovers for this stuff isn't something I know much about.

I have a pair of Zu Druids and the Zu Mini-Method active sub-woofer.

Your Emerald Physics CS2 speakers have won rave, rave reviews. They're $3500 speakers that are almost certainly not being fully utilized by your pair of $500 HT receivers.

Wayne is very well respected of course, but note that he was comparing against other HT receivers, and in the context of his home theatre set up, not his 2-channel set up.

Browntrout · « **Reply #24 on:** 12 Sep 2009, 10:48 am »

Also a digital amp is a missuse of the word digital. It does not mean that because you are using 'digital' amps from a digital source that you have a all- through digital system. The amplifier still amplifies an analogue signal.
Try to borrow a pair of class A transistor monoblocks from a high phy wheeler dealer and listen for a week or two then see what you think. Thats my advice.

cloudbaseracer · « **Reply #25 on:** 13 Sep 2009, 04:26 am »

Quote from: Browntrout on 12 Sep 2009, 10:48 am

Also a digital amp is a missuse of the word digital. It does not mean that because you are using 'digital' amps from a digital source that you have a all- through digital system. The amplifier still amplifies an analogue signal.

Browntrout,

Did you read the Direct PCM to PWM explanation that I posted earlier in this thread? It is from DIY Forum. Do his statements about Equibit being digital seem accurate to you?

James

Browntrout · « **Reply #26 on:** 13 Sep 2009, 10:04 am »

Hello, if you look here you will see what is meant by the term digital when reffering to amps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_D_Amplifier

If I can draw your attention to this line here
The term "class-D" is sometimes misunderstood as meaning a "digital" amplifier. The quantization of the output signal at the power stage can be controlled by either an analog signal or a digital signal. Only in the latter case would an amplifier be using fully digital amplification.

My understanding of this stuff is close to zero. At the risk of sounding traditionalist the less you do to the signal the better the sound so for me 'digital' amps are more for low cost high power applications such as cars and Home Theatre. For good sound go for simple high quality gear that unfortunately costs quite alot to buy but will outlast mass produced electronics and sound wonderful.

wilsynet · « **Reply #27 on:** 13 Sep 2009, 05:12 pm »

This is all marketing crap anyway. There isn't a year that goes by that someone doesn't make a new claim of a break through
in audio technology.

Both the Audi and the Subaru have independent suspensions, all wheel drive and anti-lock disc breaks. But the Audi handles better around a tight corner and stops better when it counts. Say what you will about technology, but execution is really where the rubber meets the road.

It doesn't matter what they promise you in terms of new technology; what matters is the implementation and the execution and the real world results.