[zygadr]

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo???????????

I gather there is a problem with you guys finding and obtaining VH grade poly?

I will do some research on the behalf of all here to see if VH grade poly, so called here in Aus. has possibly been lost in translation?

For example, on the last Foam Sales website link I posted, ''ISOLITE''.......you will notice that VH grade is listed as RED in color!!!!!!!!!!!!!!................WHAT?!!!! ........mine is definately WHITE not ''red''.

Now, ''ISOLITE'' is still EPS but it's a modified grade of EPS and is ''closed cell''! ???? I have never seen the red EPS/ISOLITE so I can't comment on it except that ''closed cell'' is not suitable.

As you can see, it's a confusing product

Anyhow, my suggestion is, look for white poly suppliers ''EXPANDED''............go there in person if possible, examine it, if it's soft and fragile, ask if they have a harder or better quality in WHITE .............any other color and you may be skating on thin ice

If they tell you that you will need to buy a truckload...........threaten them with a knife (just kiding ). Tell them that you are part of a research team and need to sheets cut to size for sound engineering experiments ..............it's worked for me in the past ..........just pray that they don't ask you for I.D.

Yes, I WILL post pics when the panels are finished.

[el`Ol]

I'm afraid that balsa is not the wood of choice.

Balsa used along the fibers has not enough damping. Goebel use end grain balsa, that has good damping, but is not stiff enough. So they need epoxy/fiber glass for reinforcement.

[emailtooaj]

Hello all!!
Zygadr, I have ordered my EPS boards today, production time quoted to me was 3 working days. I should hopefully recieve them next week. I had to order 16 2'x4'x 1/2" panels to meet the minimum order
I will post feedback when they arrive.

Hopefully, when I get my bonus at work I will order some more in a 2x6 cut and compare the differences.
I would imagine with the 2x4 panels that 2 exciters per sheet should do it.
And with the 2x6 sizes would need to use 4 exciters? Which means I need to go shopping at PE for more exciters.

Wish some one could loan me good testing equipment to measure and spec these different configurations out!!

Peace Out!!

[zygadr]

emailtooaj, ..........wow, that's a lot of sheets!...............guess you could use the excess for other things?

The 2X4 panels will be fine with 2 exciters. Go larger and 4 work best.

Let us know how they sound...............I think you will be surprised!

Ignore any buzzing sounds when you test them. Once mounted, that will be less of an issue as mounting is an important factor to the performance.

What you will notice is crystal clear mids and highs. Bass notes will ONLY come in when there is a bass note.............and it's impressive. There is no large woofer in a box ''droning'' sound here........just pure sound!

Still have incredible sound here at Hanger 1, AREA 33

[mightym]

 I had to order 16 2'x4'x 1/2" panels to meet the minimum order

Where are you located?  I may be interested in buying part of that order from you...

I just looked at your profile, I bet you are on the other side of the pond...

John

[DanTheMan]

Here's another interesting approach: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?522-The-Point-Source-Principle-Ripple-One-Experiment
 

[cologner]

Will have my 2 panels next week, they are ready. 27 kg / cubic meter density.
VH grade especially made for me, and for free...
Now that you have good results with EPS, do you think it has some sort of broadband frequency range compared to certain loudspeakers? I have a small subwoofer for my computer under construction and because it´s so little I´d like to substitute the bass-reflex tube with something else on the back side (similar to "passive radiator"). Maybe a piece of EPS??

[emailtooaj]

Where are you located?  I may be interested in buying part of that order from you...

I just looked at your profile, I bet you are on the other side of the pond...

John

I am located in S.C. in the US.
Where u done been located at?
I would consider selling and shipping 4 panels. I have plans for the other 12

I have a small subwoofer for my computer under construction and because it´s so little I´d like to substitute the bass-reflex tube with something else on the back side (similar to "passive radiator"). Maybe a piece of EPS??

Not sure if others will agree with me....but....Once you get the panels up and running, you will get a GREAT sounding bass tone that should be more than adequate. The panels I've been experimenting with can produce audible tones down to 30 Hz, with very few gaps (90-100 Hz, 160ish-180ish Hz you can notice some db drop.) 
If you need earth shattering bass that will break apart the continental shelves, I would advise a horn bass that is crossed for 250 Hz and lower to compliment the EPS panels.
I believe a subwoofer horn will have the needed bass accuracy to compliment the panels, along with better power efficiency, as compared to a "standard" sub woofer box(sealed or Ported).


After playing with this technology, trying various materials, and playing around a bit...I've come up with an idea that I think will help move this to the next level.
I would very much like to partner up with some dedicated people who would be willing to take on this adventure.
It still involves EPS and exciters technology (like everyone here has been working with) but done in a completely different way. 
PM me if you think you would be interested...SERIOUSLY INTERESTED!!!
I would require manufacturing some new parts, which will be easy to make, but someone else may have better or quicker resources than I?
Any takers?!

Peace Out!!

[bobloblob]

DanTheMan-

This came up on the Beyond the Ariel thread at diyaudio, if you haven't already seen it:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-47.html

I think it is an excellent idea, but best to start a new thread if you wish to pursue this line of thought.  Since Moray James seems to read and post at diyaudio, that may be the place for this one.  He has been very helpful and forthcoming with suggestions.  He is direct but polite with his criticisms, which are constructive.

[zygadr]

Well, ....................thanks for all the links guys...............a lot to read, even though I've read this stuff previously on the forum that threw me off! ..............not saying anymore on that one.

It's good to see that experimentation is on the minds of the dedicated.............the only way to move in the right direction.

I guess I have experimented with just about every possible and conceivable variation to a basic formula based on Podium Loudspeakers and their range of panels.
I have absolutely sucked ALL the available information from articles, technical details and documents released by other manufacturers in addition to NXT.

You think I didn't try the stretched mylar/dynamic basketless driver system?............spent a year on it...................it is not worth the effort and isn't '' full range''. On top of that, some complex engineering or a new driver needs to be manufactured to make it work to something that resembles high fidelity sound. Unfortunately, ribbons would be required for the top end, and I wasn't convinced about the bottom end performance either.

The above speaker, is more ''pistonic'' than a bending wave transducer'' (that has already been done for us by NXT).

The ''Podiumclone'' using EPS is at present working so good that detail extraction from my test CD recordings , as I go through them one by one is frankly frighteningly real. I truly believe that the bending wave system is responsible for this(despite it's ignorant critics), as is an ultra LIGHT WEIGHT planar membrane...............the key to all that's happened in the recent weeks.

I'm not trying to ''blow my trumpet'' and take credit as the inventor of the Pclone, but it's the result of never giving up and allways thinking in a 360 degree circle when something fails, move on and try something else.
Such is the reward for stubborness..........in a good way.

I have at home, a creation of all the above elements of time consuming effort over such a large period of time. Oh, don't worry............it hasn't been smooth sailing and cost me my membership on the ''other forum'' where my contribution was taken for granted.

This afternoon I listened as I would at a live concert, to the entire Bach Solo Cello Suites..........a long sitting.
Yet, I can do this now without listener fatigue..........in fact, it's the direct opposite - I hear MUSIC not a SYSTEM, it's wires, connectors, audiophile aids and enhancers....................that has long disappeared..............such is the power of this foam board with it's bending waves..............

[Winders]

This thread is indeed quite interesting.

Can someone show their current  'most successfull' configurations in some pics?
Ziggy how about some pics of your current set up with the frames et al?

Thanks

WM

[bobloblob]

Might be fun to try this experiment with a finished panel to see how the panel is reacting to the exciters/sound:

YouTube:  Resonante

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkox6niJ1Wc

[Nickolay V]

Hello Zygadr !
Two questions:
Exciters are all DIRECT IN-LINE or with  some horizontal displacement (shift) each from other?
What do you think about  turned to 90 degree "H- shape" mount:
i.e  top and bottom wood parts and joining exiter holder wood part ?
I.e construction with open sides of EPS sheet. 
Thanks !

[cologner]

Be careful using a brace behind exciters

My job is not offering a lot of free time right now so things proceed pretty slowly
Today I talked to a friend - he is an audio engineer - about using a brace behind the exciters in case the original plastic housing is removed like many of you did.
The outside mounting points of these housings (that look like frog feet), 4 with the cheap pair or 3 with the Dayton, are equal in horziontal position to the pole piece of the exciter when mounting onto the panel.
___________________________________
posted earlier by Donka:
"If you look at the housings the exciters come in it seems apparent that having some sort of mounting system that enables a level of push-pull action between the exciter and panel is key."
___________________________________
This means if the brace needed for exciters without housing is not properly adjusted in height, you might press the exciter and its pole piece too hard onto the panel which results in something like putting your finger on the bass speaker while listening....

Sounds logical to me and in case of removing the exciter housings and using a brace, I would be very careful with that. The height of the frame holding the brace on top, including a small additional gap to add some silicone glue, should be about the same as the exciter is. Use a caliper to determine the height exactly, exciter side-lying, without compressing the unit. Just a hint but not from personal experience so far.

BTW, is it official anyway that these exciters perform better now with housings removed?

[zygadr]

Firstly, as I have described before, if you mount the panel in a frame with an opening slightly smaller than the panel dimensions (say...1 inch, maybe a bit less all around)you will have the edges free to radiate sound.

From what I have read in technical documents, it is preferred to have the edges out of the frame, not inside it.

Secondly, once the panel is in the upright position, mounted to it's frame with cured silicone, it is then and ONLY then that the vertical back brace is installed.

The trick here is to fill in the space(and there must be a space of around 1/2 inch) between the exciter's back and wooden brace with silicone.
This does not place any undue pressure on the exciter.
When the silicone dries, it simply forms a cushion (and holds it in place to the brace) or back compliance to the exciter if it plays any severe low bass notes such as a bass drum whack.
Naturally you would not want to apply any pressure to the back of the exciter as does the plastic housing...........that's B.S.and is meaningless.

Look back on my attachments for the PEERLESS/TYMPHANY exciter document.............the raw exciter is mounted to the panel and you can choose to leave it that way or place a blob of silicone on the exciter's back, which then attaches to the frames back plate.......no rocket science

With the plastic housing that comes with the exciters, these are are purely to assist in easy mounting and stop over excursion...............most people will crank a single pair with a powerful amplifier..................yes they're that stupid.

Raw exciters on a panel without back brace, can still play very loud without damage. The brace and silicone backing for them does the same as the plastic housing, except that the exciter sounds better(with or without brace) as advised by NXT some time ago.
NXT did mention that bracing the back of the exciter with silicone in a frame is recommended to avoid voice coil creep/drop which will eventually happen.

Having said that, it happened to me, but it was only slight and did not affect the sound. I initially thought it did, but realised later that the problem was elsewhere and was easily fixed.

UPDATE : I have just read the last 3 pages of my original thread on the diyaudio forum...............

Once again, I can not believe that these people are still debating the physics of DML versus BMR..........BLA, BLA, BLA!!!!

They insist on measurements to tell them how good or bad the sound is going to be.
When someone mentioned the use of VH grade EPS being the ''fave'' over at this forum, no one gave a shit!..........of course......................may be we should M....E....A....S....U....R....E    it?????

I'm afraid that I will no longer contribute on the subject of my panels or anyone else's for that matter(yes, ....I know I've threatened similar things before, but have come back, purely because I like to help people achieve what I have).............however, this is for good now........there will be no coming back from this point on.

 Frankly, I'm sick to the stomach of all the B.S. and repetition required to alert people to an incredible breakthrough in a fantastic sounding panel that easily competes with their electrostatics, ribbons and anything else that's tall and thin.

From here on in, I will further develop my existing panels - on my own and enjoy them as I have all along.

I believe that I sucessfully implemented the NXT exciter technology in to a cost effective large scale panel speaker...............and spread my findings and knowledge over two entirely different forums.

One forum threw me off after I responded to an incredibly nasty and distasteful comment against me............the moderator blamed me of course.............not the other poster who used sexually offensive suggestions...just because he felt I was full of shit and he felt like being a smart ass on the day.

Well, I've had the last laugh.........I have working panels that amaze me more and more as I go through my CD collection, knowing that I have initiated,developed and completed a project that others only debate about.........my win........their loss.

I don't mean to come accross as a selfish bastard, but I've wasted enough time on forums and have provided more than adequate information that has quite often been ignored or worse still ''flamed'' without any consideration to the hard work I have put in for the benefit of others.

I don't direct my adverse comments to this forum in particular, it's just a general wake up call that I have had enough.

Farewell friends, and good luck

[cologner]

Hi zygadr, I was just looking at some comments on the other forum - and it looks that it is the same as on any other forum with completely different subjects  I know Disputations all winter long, with no results. Some posters leave, others come in. Been watching this since 2002 and personally I don`t give a *`-$# about that because you always meet about 70% straight and normal users you can also meet in real life having a few beers at the bar
For some guys it´s essential to have their graphs before they start to do anything I´m on the way to build a small transmission line speaker during summer and I already know the T-Line has to be adjusted manually to sound good and not from graphs. Why do we have so many bad sounding speakers around the world although all parameters and measurements are correct in theory....
Don´t take it personal, you always helped with constructive hints and knowledge from experience, but some guys won´t listen to that at all....

[sedge]

Zygadr
All the best mate,you deserve a rest.
I know it hasn’t been easy but you got there in the end,well done.
I do hope you will post some pics of the end product (when you have finished making them look beautiful of course) so that we can see them in all their glory.
Hopefully people will see it ,build it,and listen to it,then they will know how good they sound ,and if they then so wish, they can discus ,bmr ,dml esl,planar,you name it, till their blue in the face.
The only thing they all have got to get over is-
a.) they are too cheep, so they can’t sound any good.
b)they are a toy for sticking on boxes.
c)If they were any good NXT would be making the best speakers in the world for themselves,wouldent they?
Zygadr we know how good they sound and how much detail they give to a performance .
The only down side I can see is that on your favourite cd (yes you know the one ),the one with that guy at the back of the orchestra ,the one with the triangle , who insists on scratching his nuts all the way through the performance.
Cheers zygadr
Enjoy the music.
sedge

[cologner]

Once the frame construction is glued onto the panel - has anyone tried to mount a back plate so you have a closed cabinet as shown with the Peerless exciter? I think most of you go with an open frame and I wonder if performance is better when closed.

[sedge]

cologner
If you put a back plate on you will have a box ,and it will sound like a box.
treat them as you would an esl panel,as open as possible.
do not mount the panel rigidly in the frame.
sedge

[sedge]

Hi zygadr
thanks for the message.
I know I went a little OTT  on the nut scratching but I think you know what I mean  .
The sounds of people in the studio knocking things or having a drink(glug glug) obviously no one is going to hear this they think.
On one of my cd’s there is a sound of someone opening a door wile the band is playing Quite loudly,on most speakers you would not hear this or any of the other sounds.
The problem is it sounds exactly like my front door opening ,so I kept getting up to see who was coming in the front door(spooky, especially when you are in the house alone sat 2 AM in the morning).
It was a couple of months before the penny dropped ,that I only had visitors when playing that track on that cd.
Next day I cancelled the exorcist  ,but I still can’t stop getting up just to check that there is no one entering the house
 sedge