NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!

sedge · « **Reply #2780 on:** 22 Feb 2016, 01:24 am »

Hi Scott
Had a look in your gallery ,are those low watt amps you are using ,as that would make the choice of panel material very important.
As for which is best ,I think everyone has their own idea of that,there's a lot to choose from,hope you find one right for you.
Steve

bigaudioscotto · « **Reply #2781 on:** 22 Feb 2016, 11:18 pm »

Hi Steve,
No that is an old pass labs B1 buffer.
I have have several amps to run these push pull tube amp
Single ended tube,tpa3116 class d amp
I was just trying to determine between 1/8 birch ply
Or 1 inch XPS of maybe 2x4 in size any thoughts on this ?

Scott

sedge · « **Reply #2782 on:** 23 Feb 2016, 02:17 pm »

Scott
The key word you used was, true full range ,although I love the sound of my various eps and xps panels ,I wouldn't call them true full range,I would always use my transmission line speakers to underpin the lower end.
They are very efficient though and are good for low watt amps with great acoustic performances ,but not good with loud low end electronic or some close mic recordings.
The 3mm rigid ply panels I am experimenting with at the moment I would class as true full range ,but I am still in the early days of testing,they are quick and easy to build ,the ply 3x2ft panel is about 5 db louder than the basic ply panel ,I would recommend using a 20watt exciter at least,although I have no problems with the 10 watt exciter on my 3x2ft panels in my small room.
Must go now.
Steve

bigaudioscotto · « **Reply #2783 on:** 23 Feb 2016, 03:58 pm »

Hi Steve,
Where do you find the 3 mm rigid ply you are speaking of ? An links ?
Also I see where a lot of guys have had trouble with reliability on
These Dayton exciters which seem to sound best and hold up ?

Regards
Scott

sedge · « **Reply #2784 on:** 24 Feb 2016, 01:06 pm »

Scott
The daex25hesf and the 25vt look like the standard robust exciters I use,with the wire's out side of the unit ,the price looks good too,the higher power units are a lot more expensive.
Not sure where you are but I'm in the UK ,but would expect most diy shops to sell 1/8 ply as standard,in the UK 6x2ft or 4x2ft seem to sell for almost the same price,so 6x2ft it is

I intend to try at least another two types of panel material ,just to give an idea of what's possible ,sound wise .
Steve

bigaudioscotto · « **Reply #2785 on:** 24 Feb 2016, 01:41 pm »

Steve,
Is that 1/8 ply wood or some other type of ply material ?

Scott

sedge · « **Reply #2786 on:** 24 Feb 2016, 08:45 pm »

Scott
All it says on the label is 3.6mm hardwood ply ,although to my eye's it looks more like 3mm,but basically it's 1/8 ply wood.
The 6x4ft ply wood rigidly mounted panel is a little louder than the plain sheet ply wood ,but the 3x2ft rigidly mounted ply wood panel is more like 4 to 5 db louder,this panel must be getting closer to the ideal size for best efficacy,what ever that is

this is where computer programmes come in handy

Steve

bigaudioscotto · « **Reply #2787 on:** 24 Feb 2016, 11:35 pm »

Steve,
Thank you for the information.
I am going to dive headfirst and try
All of the different panels I can find
And different ways of mounting and or hanging them
I will report my findings along the way.

Regards
Scott

sedge · « **Reply #2788 on:** 25 Feb 2016, 01:35 am »

Scott
At this moment I'm listening to my 6x2ft panel on the left and on right I have one of my 5mm xps 2ft10inch x2ft panels xo ing overt to my TLS at about 200HZ.
They go well together ,similar sounding.
There are many combinations that can work,hope you can find yours.
Have fun.
Steve

bigaudioscotto · « **Reply #2789 on:** 28 Feb 2016, 03:07 pm »

What product are you guys using to attach your exciters to panels ?

Regards
Scott

sedge · « **Reply #2790 on:** 1 Mar 2016, 03:39 pm »

Scott
I use pva to glue on the exciters .I usually scuff the exciter foot with sand paper first.
Steve

Gary.M · « **Reply #2791 on:** 2 Mar 2016, 02:28 am »

Quote from: sedge on 1 Mar 2016, 03:39 pm

Scott
I use pva to glue on the exciters .I usually scuff the exciter foot with sand paper first.
Steve

PVA, ideally, requires a porous surface for proper adhesion. Because of this it doesn't seem ideally suited for gluing the exciters. Does it hold OK? What made you choose it? Epoxy or cyanoacrylate might be better.

sedge · « **Reply #2792 on:** 2 Mar 2016, 01:28 pm »

GARY.m
If I remember the pva instructions correctly at least one of the surfaces has to be porous .
Although I believe some have had some trouble with new exciters using different types of plastic feet,hopefully they can answer this.
I have exciters that are still attached to different types of panels ,some for six or seven years.
I coat poly type panels in pva so it makes sense to use the same glue.
Wood is also no problem.
As long as the glue you use does not damage the two surfaces you are trying bond it should be OK .
Steve

sedge · « **Reply #2793 on:** 3 Mar 2016, 11:32 am »

Although come to think of it,I used pva to glue the exciters onto the first metal panels I made ,way back,I think it's still attached somewhere around the house?
I used a hair dryer to apply heat to help get the moisture out,it helps only using small amounts of pva on a small area.
Steve

arachni42 · « **Reply #2794 on:** 5 Mar 2016, 03:06 am »

Hey guys, I just discovered the beauty of these flat panel speakers about two weeks ago. Once I heard about the concept I made an exciter out of a cheap speaker and tried it on some 2x2 XPS. I didn't get much HF, but there was something about the sound of the mids that just... hooked me. Since then, I've been reading this thread since the beginning and taking notes (although my notes have gotten way less detailed after page 100 or so from a note-taking fatigue -- I'll have to go back again

). I ordered a bunch of exciters from PE, and they are all far better than my cruddy makeshift one. No problems with HF now.

So, I actually have a few planned projects. The first is a basic pair of 2x4 XPS panels for the rec room. I like the sound of the XPS and I actually like the lavender-ish color, too. Early on in the thread, someone had discussed using a single panel for stereo. I tried that first with one of these, but the sound just felt too narrow. So I'm in the process of treating the second panel with PVA now.

Second, I want to make a pair of cardboard speakers for my office. I work at a very small startup company. My employer is into audio and is very interested in the project. But I would like to "dress up" the cardboard a bit. We just moved into a new office and it's kind of bare right now. Needs some color. (In addition to music, of course!) I can think of a few options -- dye, paint, and cloth.

Dye would be an easy option, but I wouldn't be able to get bright or light colors out of it. Paint might be good, but I imagine it might affect the sound similar to glue. It might also make it overdamped. Has anyone painted their cardboard? Cloth might affect the sound, too, though it probably depends on what type of cloth, and where it's placed. (I was thinking it could go a little bit in front of the cardboard, and not directly on it.) Well, I right now have cardboard in abundance, so I'll try some different things out.

Third, I want to try putting a panel in the back of my hatchback to use as a subwoofer. (It would also double as a cargo cover.) It's so crazy it just might work! Actually, it will probably result in the charred remains of multiple exciters, but we'll see.

I'll let you know how it goes.

OB_Newbie · « **Reply #2795 on:** 5 Mar 2016, 04:08 am »

Welcome arachni42 and glad you are enjoying your flat panels. Yeah... it is very easy to get hooked on these magic panels!

Let us know how the cardboard panels go. If you have a bunch of it around, I'd giver' a try. My experience with cardboard wasn't totally satisfying and probably would do 1/2" XPS or EPS if I had to do a smaller panel again... my 14.5 x 12 XPS panels were excellent EQed in the low end to boost output down to about 80Hz.

But personal tastes all play a part so you may enjoy them like others early in the thread.

Hope we hear back from ya soon!!

arachni42 · « **Reply #2796 on:** 6 Mar 2016, 07:03 am »

Today I finally finished mounting the XPS panels. I have them attached with Velcro to some stands I made out of trellises. I'm not sure if this is the best setup, but it's better than just leaning them up against something. I'm using one DAE25FHE-4 per panel.

They definitely needed some EQ, boosting on the low end and a little bit of attenuation in the 1k-10k range. I've been playing all kinds of music -- prog rock, classical, opera, jpop, industrial, classic rock, etc. (I was hoping to try it with TV, too, but I learned today that the only audio out on mine is an optical digital, and I don't have a receiver for that. So I guess that will have to wait.)

Anyway, all of it is sounding pretty good! But it still needs some work. The room effects are significant; one panel sounds louder than the other because it's closer to a corner. (I swapped them and got the same effect.) The biggest problem is that I am hearing an echo, although it's weird; impossible to localize. This is definitely a different experience than typical speakers. I think it's because of the positioning of the panels and the room and in relation to each other. They're only 3 feet apart right now, and the room is not a large one... I'm going to have to rearrange some things to make a better space.

Haven't had much time to mess with the cardboard yet, although I did determine that a quick spraypainting of one side of one seemed to have a similar effect to glue. The paint I used soaked a bit into the cardboard, and the surface is stiffer but still looks... well... cardboardy. Not really desirable as far as aesthetics. To Be Continued...

mildperil · « **Reply #2797 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 11:52 am »

Hello Arachni42,

Welcome to the forum.

It is great fun and seriously addictive playing with these. You are going about it the right way, as much as it helps reading all the advice on here, you never really know until you try for yourself.

I have experimented quite a lot with cardboard based materials, and I prefer the stuff with a honeycomb structure. Also material with white printable finish seems to sound better than the raw brown paper (if the brown paper sounds harsh, a coat of PVA seems to help).

I'm not sure where you are based, but in the UK, Ultraboard by Dufaylite works pretty well and isn't too expensive. Better still is ReBoard, but it is more expensive and they have stopped making the 5mm thickness. I haven't tried the 8mm version.

Positioning is critical, and they do either need a good amount of space behind them, or some absorbent material to damp the back wave.

The skin of the material seems to have a dramatic effect on the sound, so you might have to experiment with with different paints. It might be and idea to try mixing PVA and water based paint as PVA seems to produce good results more often than not. Let us know what you discover.

Ben

arachni42 · « **Reply #2798 on:** 8 Mar 2016, 06:18 am »

Yeah, it's definitely interesting to hear these things for yourself.

Today I learned that the bothersome echo I was hearing was coming mostly from... the floor. We have a little rug in this room, but I had moved it aside for my experiments. The walls are pretty bare in this room, too, clearly producing reflections, but not the really disconcerting ones. Those were noticeably less after putting the rug back. I guess I should start reading up on how to make rooms sound better. In the past we haven't done much in this room besides watch movies and play video games, but now I'm anxious to see how those games sound with these!

I live in the U.S. The honeycomb materials are intriguing, but for now I'm going to experiment with what's readily available. The brown paper of typical cardboard doesn't sound "harsh" to me so much as "fuzzy," but regardless the treatment makes a clear difference.

sedge · « **Reply #2799 on:** 8 Mar 2016, 12:26 pm »

Arachni 42
I used to be able to get hold of as much free cc as I wanted,I preferred the sound of the lighter 3mm but others seemed to like the thicker heavier cc and make them even heavier by pouring varnish into the flutes,my panels were about 3ft,the problem coating them was that they would distort when dry .
It was annoying when I found eps and preferred the sound,I then had to pay for it

That's life for you

Steve