[zygadr]

I know there have been similar discussions on this before, but I thought that I would add my findings to the ''revelation bucket''

Given to me a couple of months ago, amongs other goodies ,was some 1.5mm diameter(guage??) vintage magnet wire coated in an orange laquer(a huge wooden roll about one quarter left).
This ''coating'' is very strange - has not cracked or delaminated despite it is 40 years old!
Secondly, you CAN NOT in any way, burn it off like the modern stuff. The only way is to scrape it off

I ran two 24 foot lengths per speaker and started listening. I'll say right here and now that I did not over the last 8 week period notice any ''break in'' or gradual sound improvement over time.

What I have is without doubt the best speaker cable I have ever heard and I have tried so many over the years - Monster Cable(from the cheapest to the most expensive), QED,AUDIOQUEST,NAIM,the list could go on and on.

Prior to this I was using some obscure but costly American made thick stranded speaker cable that has been in use for over 10 years.
This magnet wire absolutely kills it in EVERY department.

I'm not going to rave on, but will say this - if you want the most revealing, transparent and dynamic cable for nearly nothing cost wise, use thick magnet wire.....you won't regret it.
Works great as interconnects too.

[Sonny]

Hey...nice that you and hopefully others will figure out that Magnet wires are AMAZING!  I've used it to make my DIY i/c, you can read the thread here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50447.0 and many have been very happy with it, and I definitely am!  The only thing with having them as speaker cables is that they are darn "stiff"! 

Yes, the only way is to scrape them off...not a quick and easy job, but you can do it!

Tuan

[zygadr]

Hi Sonny.
Yes,every once in a while, something simple, cheap and easily obtainable can produce dramatic effects to an audio system

[Big Red Machine]

Why not Romex?  Is it the copper or the sheath that makes a difference?

[WerTicus]

for interconnects you'll want to use many strands of finer magnet wire...

[TheChairGuy]

for interconnects you'll want to use many strands of finer magnet wire...

I think the same for speaker wire, too, with magnet wire.

12 and 13ga that I tried sounded indistinct.  I haven't toyed with smaller gauges for it...but that might be the trick

As Carlman here at AC described it - magnet wire (12/13ga at least with me) sounds 'blatty'.  It's cohesive...but the sounds just all come at you at once without nuance that multi-stranded wire has.

There is virtually zero burn-in time as the dielectric sheath is so thin there is no burn-in required.  I maintain its the dielectric itself or in conjunction with the wire that requires burn-in...NOT the wire itself.

I've heard (or not heard) it countless times.  Cheap plastic dielectric (including Monster's) - zero burn-in time.  Magnet wire with very, very thin diectric - a few minutes only (perhaps not even that).  Fancy wire with different grades of thick teflon dielectric - from 50 to 200 hours.  PTFE takes longest of all (200 hours)

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it

Why is this in Kevin/DIYCable's circle?

John

[Sonny]

for interconnects you'll want to use many strands of finer magnet wire...

Hm....
I only use one strand per lead, and it works fine for me..

[Regalma]

I have often heard the single strand versus many strands argument. Though I have never heard any reason to support one or the other. There was the skin effect argument, but any double E will quickly point the fallacy of that argument, unless you physically isolate the individual strands, say like the CheLa cable.

I have come across mention of a "diode" effect, which left me puzzled until recently. I work in the RF and microwave measurement industry. We build instruments used to set up and maintain telecomm and other high frequency equipment. By the way, mention any of this stuff to microwave engineers and they will laugh you out of the room. They consider audio frequencies to be so low that they might as well be DC. That is another story.

Recently a problem called PIM has been getting a lot of attention in the industry as cell towers age. This stands for passive intermodulation distortion. It is non-linear distortion, the worst kind. It happens when low or non conductive layers form between conductors. Connectors are the real problem in the industry. Rather than pretend be an expert on this I suggest you look it up. Wikipedia is a good start. It could be used as an argument for single strand cables. But I'm quite sure that no one has done the measurements needed to support this, especially at audio frequencies, which are very, very low compared to what the industry is dealing with.

[zygadr]

Yes, it's all a mystery if you ask me. There is a definate ''different'' sound of solid core versus stranded - that I know for certain within my boundary of experience.

Dielectrics are bad news........I think we can settle on that one being accepted by most of us?

Where there is an interesting factor that comes in to play with my ''vintage'' solid core magnet wire is that I have been recently advised that it would have been coated by SHELLAC varnish when it was made all those years ago - that's a fact as I was shown an old tin of it and I immediately recognized the smell and appearance.

So, modern magnet wire, depending on application, temperature etc. is coated ususally with three layers of Polymer film : POLYURETHANE, POLYAMIDE,POLYESTER........all plastics?
This is a far cry from natural resin ''shellac'' as a dielectric. I have not compared the modern coatings to the old ones. There may be a difference, there may not be.......who knows.

I still maintain that the sound of solid copper wiring is unique and superior to any stranded stuff I have heard before.

[guest1632]

Yes, it's all a mystery if you ask me. There is a definate ''different'' sound of solid core versus stranded - that I know for certain within my boundary of experience.

Dielectrics are bad news........I think we can settle on that one being accepted by most of us?

Where there is an interesting factor that comes in to play with my ''vintage'' solid core magnet wire is that I have been recently advised that it would have been coated by SHELLAC varnish when it was made all those years ago - that's a fact as I was shown an old tin of it and I immediately recognized the smell and appearance.

So, modern magnet wire, depending on application, temperature etc. is coated ususally with three layers of Polymer film : POLYURETHANE, POLYAMIDE,POLYESTER........all plastics?
This is a far cry from natural resin ''shellac'' as a dielectric. I have not compared the modern coatings to the old ones. There may be a difference, there may not be.......who knows.

I still maintain that the sound of solid copper wiring is unique and superior to any stranded stuff I have heard before.

I guess the best way to say this is in my experience, the several stranded cables versus the single strand sounds less busy. Just my two cents which buys you nothing.

Ray Bronk

[richidoo]

I used anticables for my first audiophile speaker wire. It was better than RCA zip cord speaker wire from Home Depot. The price was right and the testimonials were convincing. I liked it for a year. But when Carlman came to help with problems with ringing and shouting he said his system did than when he had magnet wire. Replacing them solved the problems for me. Maybe your old copper wire has different metallurgy than Anticable which uses Japanese Ohno copper (I think), or maybe it's a better match to your amp and speakers than it was for mine. Which was a small tube amp driving a low impedance speaker, maybe the high current demand and wimpy amp exacerbated the problem.

[guest1632]

I used anticables for my first audiophile speaker wire. It was better than RCA zip cord speaker wire from Home Depot. The price was right and the testimonials were convincing. I liked it for a year. But when Carlman came to help with problems with ringing and shouting he said his system did than when he had magnet wire. Replacing them solved the problems for me. Maybe your old copper wire has different metallurgy than Anticable which uses Japanese Ohno copper (I think), or maybe it's a better match to your amp and speakers than it was for mine. Which was a small tube amp driving a low impedance speaker, maybe the high current demand and wimpy amp exacerbated the problem.

I have a pair of Name cables for my speaker wire. They are solid wires, not stranded. Been thinking that once I get the system back up and running, will take those cables, and separate them, and cut away the webbing that is in between both sides of the cables. That will make a slight difference.

Ray Bronk

[DaveC113]

I've tried anti cable and other gages of mag wire in various configurations... basically I agree with richidoo, it can sound good at first, but over time you might notice issues. For example the anti cable produced an off tone in my system that took me a few weeks to notice. Some instruments, esp. strings, just had this unrealistic strange tone to them. My theory is that mag wire vibrates, and adding damping might help.

I also used to think stranded wire was inferior, but the Woods patio cable and a star quad made of 20 gage mil-spec wire (silver plated copper in teflon) proved me wrong there. They are both better than mag wire and a couple cat5 braids I made.

Honestly, I'm not sure what to think of speaker wire anymore, the only conclusion that I've come to is I seem to like lower inductance, so the star quad works well for me. This configuration seems to get rid of some harshness I've found in zip cord type wires.

[guest1632]

I've tried anti cable and other gages of mag wire in various configurations... basically I agree with richidoo, it can sound good at first, but over time you might notice issues. For example the anti cable produced an off tone in my system that took me a few weeks to notice. Some instruments, esp. strings, just had this unrealistic strange tone to them. My theory is that mag wire vibrates, and adding damping might help.

I also used to think stranded wire was inferior, but the Woods patio cable and a star quad made of 20 gage mil-spec wire (silver plated copper in teflon) proved me wrong there. They are both better than mag wire and a couple cat5 braids I made.

Honestly, I'm not sure what to think of speaker wire anymore, the only conclusion that I've come to is I seem to like lower inductance, so the star quad works well for me. This configuration seems to get rid of some harshness I've found in zip cord type wires.

I have not played with magnet wire for speakers. The silver over copper, you have to be careful about using that type of wire. If the quality of the plating isn't that good, then you will have other issues, like harsh sounding highend. At least, that is what I have noticed with Interconnects. Speaker wire may react totally different. Can you give me your receipe for the speaker wire configuration you are using?

Ray Bronk

[Wayner]

Magnet wire for speaker cable? I think it's totally goofy. First as already mentioned, it's very stiff. That can lead to a host of oopses, from wires pulling out of connectors to wires poking my eyes out. Secondly, if you braid them, you are going to add some capacitance to them and that maybe the sound change you hear, not better, but different. And some of you are trying cat-5 wire? Why? it's not a good gauge for speaker wire applications, especially at longer runs. What is wrong with some good ole' 16, 14 or if you insist, 12 awg multi-strand speaker wire? I bet you couldn't tell the difference in a blind AB test. Yes, I tried magnet wire, I thought the stiffness was reason alone to forget it.

I think everyone is looking for a magic pill that will suddenly open the systems soundstage into some glorious explosion of sound, based on nothing more than opinion and hope.

Wayner 

[guest1632]

Magnet wire for speaker cable? I think it's totally goofy. First as already mentioned, it's very stiff. That can lead to a host of oopses, from wires pulling out of connectors to wires poking my eyes out. Secondly, if you braid them, you are going to add some capacitance to them and that maybe the sound change you hear, not better, but different. And some of you are trying cat-5 wire? Why? it's not a good gauge for speaker wire applications, especially at longer runs. What is wrong with some good ole' 16, 14 or if you insist, 12 awg multi-strand speaker wire? I bet you couldn't tell the difference in a blind AB test. Yes, I tried magnet wire, I thought the stiffness was reason alone to forget it.

I think everyone is looking for a magic pill that will suddenly open the systems soundstage into some glorious explosion of sound, based on nothing more than opinion and hope.

Wayner 

Hi Wayner,

Well, I'm not going to get in to a debate on speaker wire. Yes, there are differences, whether you can hear them or not is up to you. I once did a test with some 16 gauge Radshack about 3 feet versus my Name 12 foot pair. I did hear a difference, and I'm not sure if it was good or bad. It wasn't startling, just a very minor difference. So that's all I know. On IC's that's a different matter entirely. Frank goes out of his way to make sure his equipment isn't bothered by cables. I wish more designers would follow suite. This debate will rage on til time ends.

Ray Bronk

[Wayner]

Thank's Ray, I do appreciate your candor! Magnet wire is made from copper and that's good. We need to conduct those electrons, dammit! However, the other horseplay with the wire takes it out of the loop for me. I'm not against it, I'm not in favor of it.

I'm starting to sound like a politician.....Oops, that's political.

Never mind.

Wayner 

[Kevin Haskins]

I know my company name is DIYCable but I'm not much of a cable tweaker.   

Don't get me wrong, I use Cardas cable in my system.   I believe in allocating reasonable money to using high-quality design, connectors and materials.    Some of this is probably excessive but hey... I'm an audio freak and I believe in overkill if it is within reasonable reach.

I don't believe cables should do something to the signal they conduct.   Any cable design should ultimately reject noise, minimize changes to the frequency response and not cause amplifier instability.    Outside of those characteristics, I don't change cables to get a certain "sound".   

I do most of my tuning, or voicing, with the speaker design.   It is there that you get huge measurable and audible differences that are not subtle.    I'd prefer cables to just not get in the way of my voicing a speaker design so I choose cables that meet that goal.   

I use Cardas G-Master Reference or 2 x 24M for low-level signals, and Cardas Twinlink for speaker cable, 15.5XL for internal wire.    None of these designs are exotic, but the materials are overkill (high purity copper, Teflon dielectric etc..).   

Just my 0.02

[guest1632]

Thank's Ray, I do appreciate your candor! Magnet wire is made from copper and that's good. We need to conduct those electrons, dammit! However, the other horseplay with the wire takes it out of the loop for me. I'm not against it, I'm not in favor of it.

I'm starting to sound like a politician.....Oops, that's political.

Never mind.

Wayner 

Hi Wayner,

lol, Yeah, I've been there when things have been stirred up in the other circle about Does wire make a difference? Well, in some cases it can. Frank can say the things he does because he too has his biases. That's certainly ok. You ask any audio designer. they each will have there own opinions. He does go all out to make sure his gear is not affected by cables. So this is in my opinion why he feels the way he does. He doesn't think that burnin is for real. Well, it is, but we won't for the sake of this entry dwell on it here.

Speaker wire is ok, but there is better than that. That is what this hobby is all about, exploring areas where people don't want to explore. Some people can hear the differences, others couldn't tell you the difference between say Frank's gear versus a piece of Kenwood gear. I know that is a bit extreme. i try not to get caught up in the stuff where it's a night and day difference, when in reality, it's only a subtle difference with hype attached. Hope all this is making sense.

Go ask Sunny for his receipe to make the magnet IC's. They're cheap to make, and I think I already understand his receipe, but would need a bit of clearification as to some details. Try them and let me know what you think. If you are handy with an iron and solder, then that'll work. So Sunny if you're reading this, PM me with the receipe. TTYL

Ray

[DaveC113]

Different geometric configurations of wire will produce changes in inductance and capacitance that will be measurable and possibly audible. I believe star quad is better than zip cord because of this, as well as it's superior noise rejection, which could be the reason I have found zip cord to be harsh sounding.

Ray, I am using 20 g mil spec wire, twisted into a star quad configuration using a drill. It's easier if you use 2 different colors both for identifying positive and negative, but also for making sure the wire is twisting properly. The wire was around 20 cents / foot, I used 80 feet for a grand total of $16. Silver plating is nice because you won't have to worry about corrosion, so I don't bother to use expensive gold-plated copper connectors. I have found cheap (impure?) silver to sound edgy, but good quality stuff sounds great in my system, although I ended up preferring copper in the preamp > amp IC. Teflon is also nice because you don't have to worry about the soldering iron melting it, it worked great for building my amp too.