[BrianM]

Depends on how much latitude one wants to grant to the word 'color' I suppose. In my experience tube amps normally 'color' the sound, by which I mean the timbre of instruments and voices, more than transistor amps do. Of course a sand amp could be designed to mimic the coloration of a tube amp...

[rajacat]

Maybe you just like the way sand amps color the sound. What you consider color others might find that it corresponds more to the way it would sound live. Nevertheless, we all hear differently so it all comes down to a subjective judgment.

-Roy

[BrianM]

Oh I agree it's subjective, although my yardstick for coloration, too, is my internal memory of live acoustic instruments. I don't prefer SS amps or any other design approach per se; my own stuff is hybrid and sounds basically neutral to me. I also don't particularly care if the sound is colored, as long as the music is lifelike in terms of its presence, immediacy, image and detail. Since those criteria can be met to a very satisfying degree using a transport > SPDIF > good DAC, jitter or no, inferior PS or no, I choose not to worry about it. But I do wonder if a lot of tube gear would render the differences moot anyway.

[zybar]

But I do wonder if a lot of tube gear would render the differences moot anyway.

I think ANY well constructed and designed gear will allow each person to hear all that they can.

The crappy designs and cheaply constructed products won't.

Pretty simple and straight forward.

George

[Nuance]

I have a question: when connecting the Squeezebox using analogs, would a linear power supply or Wayne's analog mod yield better sound quality?  I know that the PSU will make a difference when connected via analog (still not sure about connected digitally, though), and I am forced to connect that way until I get a DAC, thus my question.

The problem with the Duet is I cannot find a cheap, proper 9v linear PSU.  When I used the Classic for a few weeks, there were a handful of cheap wall wart solutions, but the voltage is different with the Duet. 

[jsalk]

I usually like to take a very hands-off approach on this circle so that people can freely exchange ideas.  But this thread has certainly gone "off-topic." 

I would suggest there may be other circles more appropriate to some of the discussions taking place here, or at least new threads should be started so each thread can remain somewhat on-topic.

Another thing I would ask is that if you post here, please constrain your comments to the technical aspects involved and refrain from posting derogatory comments about other vendors or other individuals expressing their opinions.  You may disagree with the opinions expressed and are free to express your own, but do so with courtesy to the posters/vendors in question. Derogatory comments about individuals or vendors are not cool or appropriate.

Thanks for your cooperation.

- Jim

[Wayne1]

You might want to look at this post

Inexpensive power supply for DUET

[Nuance]

Thanks, Wayne, but I feel horrible for confusing you with another company, thus unintentionally labeling you use one of those rip-off companies.  If anything, I'll save my money and give it to you, as you seem like a great, hard working guy and offer some great products. 

I would love your input on my question, though.  Analog mod or power supply?  Both would be ideal, of course, but I'd have to do it one thing at a time. 

Oh, and thanks to the link for the cheap solution.  I'll give it a go, but will probably be consulting with you for serious mods.

Again, my apologies to you.

Edit: I took it to PM to prevent the thread from going further off topic.

[WGH]

I have a question: when connecting the Squeezebox using analogs, would a linear power supply or Wayne's analog mod yield better sound quality?  I know that the PSU will make a difference when connected via analog (still not sure about connected digitally, though), and I am forced to connect that way until I get a DAC, thus my question.

How about using a Felix until you save up for a linear power supply?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50284.0

I've long been a proponent of linear supplies for the SB3, finding them a significant improvement over the stock switching supplies.  Well with the Felix I got a different result.  The combination of the Felix and the stock switching supply sounds outstanding and in fact it sounds better than either the linear supply on its own or the linear supply and the Felix combination.

I gave away my squeezebox before I had a chance to try out the Felix, I have also read that it sounds even better if you put one on the A/C line and another on the DC output too.

Wayne

[Nuance]

^ Very interesting.  Thanks for the info.   

[WGH]

I found the Squeezebox's sound through the analog outputs do be mid-fi at best, but using an Insight+ DAC was much, much better.

I would put money into a DAC first then a power supply upgrade later, any DAC would be an upgrade compared to the stock analog outputs.

But $30 for a Felix or $20 for Wayne1's linear supply suggestion is cheap fun.

Wayne

[oneinthepipe]

If you are going to a DAC, there should be absolutely no difference.  The bitstream either puts out should be EXACTLY the same as the original CD.  In this case, the DAC determines the sound quality.

There is a difference in the sound between a CD track played in my Marantz CD5001 (as a transport) and the corresponding AIFF file played in iTunes on my iMac, both played through the same DAC, using an Inday Digital Audio Switcher to select the digital source.  I can't say which is more accurate, but the files from the iMac seem more detailed and also brighter (overly).

I was hoping that the SB or some other (not terribly expensive) component would provide better sound than my CDP or my computer.

Henry,

When you come over, we can do a test with my SB I use in the HT system.  I have the stock wall wart and an elpac PS modified by Wayne at Bolder Cable.  We can send the digital out of the SB into the Modwright TP and listen to it with both ways.  Putting aside which is preferred, I am confident you will hear a difference.

George

I didn't get to listen to any Salk speakers when I visited George this afternoon because he is renovating his home theater (which has five SongTowers), but I had an opportunity to listen to George's main system which uses a Modwright TP.

Although I didn't listen to any Salk speakers, without any doubt, if we had played my HT2-TL speakers in George's room, the speakers would have played much better in George's room than in my room.  George has a large dedicated space that is fully treated with an array of Real Trap diffusors, absorption panels, and bass traps.  Regarding electronics, George has two Atma-Sphere amps (MA-1, I believe), a Plinius M8 preamp, and the Modwright Transporter.  George's speakers are the excellent Vandy 5A.

The detail is amazing.  The bass is very deep and very flat.  The realism of instruments is extraordinary.  The depth of the soundstage, in George's dedicated listening room, is incredible (drums were easily 15 feet back).  In the first track that we listened to, with which I am very familiar, there was a reverberation in the vocals that I did not even know existed.  In George's room, with his electronics, my HT2-TL would have reproduced the reverberation.  I generally think of tube amps producing a softer sound than solid state amps, and while that might be true, the Atma-Sphere amps were not lacking in their ability to reproduce musical detail.  Neither was the tube output from the Modwright Transporter.  This is a system that is very detailed but would never be fatiguing.  I could have listened for hours.  (George has a really great chair, too.)

George was an excellent and knowledgeable host, and he explained the Transporter's operation.  George also played some hi-rez tracks through the TP.  Comparing the tracks, I thought that the bass in the redbook track was not as flat as with the hi-rez track.  George thought, with the particular track that we compared, the mid-range had better definition with the hi-rez track.  Both the redbook and hi-rez track sounded great.

This was a great way to spend a couple of hours on a Wednesday afternoon.  After my visit, listening through George's Modwright TP, and with my limited experience with music that was ripped to my computer and with music played on my CDP (both through the same AVA DAC), I believe that server-based systems are a better choice. 

George, thank you for the invitation and for your hospitality.

[floresjc]

well i guess its time for the OP to chime in. So I ponied up and bought an Insight DAC. I'm leaning toward using the squeezebox with the coax out like Jim does. The other option is the airpor express, but there's a lot of pieces in that chain. Like mini-optical to optical, optical to coax, then the DAC. So while it might be nice to stay all in iTunes, not sure all those converters are worth it, or if it would degrade anything. I still got time to figure it out.

[zybar]

If you are going to a DAC, there should be absolutely no difference.  The bitstream either puts out should be EXACTLY the same as the original CD.  In this case, the DAC determines the sound quality.

There is a difference in the sound between a CD track played in my Marantz CD5001 (as a transport) and the corresponding AIFF file played in iTunes on my iMac, both played through the same DAC, using an Inday Digital Audio Switcher to select the digital source.  I can't say which is more accurate, but the files from the iMac seem more detailed and also brighter (overly).

I was hoping that the SB or some other (not terribly expensive) component would provide better sound than my CDP or my computer.

Henry,

When you come over, we can do a test with my SB I use in the HT system.  I have the stock wall wart and an elpac PS modified by Wayne at Bolder Cable.  We can send the digital out of the SB into the Modwright TP and listen to it with both ways.  Putting aside which is preferred, I am confident you will hear a difference.

George

I didn't get to listen to any Salk speakers when I visited George this afternoon because he is renovating his home theater (which has five SongTowers), but I had an opportunity to listen to George's main system which uses a Modwright TP.

Although I didn't listen to any Salk speakers, without any doubt, if we had played my HT2-TL speakers in George's room, the speakers would have played much better in George's room than in my room.  George has a large dedicated space that is fully treated with an array of Real Trap diffusors, absorption panels, and bass traps.  Regarding electronics, George has two Atma-Sphere amps (MA-1, I believe), a Plinius M8 preamp, and the Modwright Transporter.  George's speakers are the excellent Vandy 5A.

The detail is amazing.  The bass is very deep and very flat.  The realism of instruments is extraordinary.  The depth of the soundstage, in George's dedicated listening room, is incredible (drums were easily 15 feet back).  In the first track that we listened to, with which I am very familiar, there was a reverberation in the vocals that I did not even know existed.  In George's room, with his electronics, my HT2-TL would have reproduced the reverberation.  I generally think of tube amps producing a softer sound than solid state amps, and while that might be true, the Atma-Sphere amps were not lacking in their ability to reproduce musical detail.  Neither was the tube output from the Modwright Transporter.  This is a system that is very detailed but would never be fatiguing.  I could have listened for hours.  (George has a really great chair, too.)

George was an excellent and knowledgeable host, and he explained the Transporter's operation.  George also played some hi-rez tracks through the TP.  Comparing the tracks, I thought that the bass in the redbook track was not as flat as with the hi-rez track.  George thought, with the particular track that we compared, the mid-range had better definition with the hi-rez track.  Both the redbook and hi-rez track sounded great.

This was a great way to spend a couple of hours on a Wednesday afternoon.  After my visit, listening through George's Modwright TP, and with my limited experience with music that was ripped to my computer and with music played on my CDP (both through the same AVA DAC), I believe that server-based systems are a better choice. 

George, thank you for the invitation and for your hospitality.

It was a pleasure having you over and I enjoyed our conversations as well as sharing of music.  Thank you very much for the compliments on the system sound.  If the HT2-TL's weren't fairly large and heavy, I would say "bring them over" and let's hear what they can do at my place.   

The HT will be back in action for our GTG on July 25th so you will get to hear what 5 SongTowers sounds like.  I will be using a pair of open baffle subs that I just purchased for bass duties, so it should be a lot of fun.

At the GTG maybe we can do some of the transport/power supply tests?

George

[Nuance]

well i guess its time for the OP to chime in. So I ponied up and bought an Insight DAC. I'm leaning toward using the squeezebox with the coax out like Jim does. The other option is the airpor express, but there's a lot of pieces in that chain. Like mini-optical to optical, optical to coax, then the DAC. So while it might be nice to stay all in iTunes, not sure all those converters are worth it, or if it would degrade anything. I still got time to figure it out.

I think you'll be very happy with the Insight DAC paired with the Squeezebox.  But as I learned from a very knowledgeable man, do not use the toslink optical digital out of the squeezebox; use the coax.  Also, are you going with the Duet or the Classic if you go the SB route?

For the record, I picked up that cheap Parts Express power supply that Wayne recommended to use with the Duet.  I am connected via the analogs of the SB, and it did in fact make a difference.  I dunno how it will effect connecting optically, but using the analogs the noise floor is lower and everything is just clearer and cleaner.  I've spoken to Wayne at Bolder cable and will be sending it to him when I can afford the $100 modification he does to it, as well as the custom cable he'll make so I don't have to use that stupid cheap spade connection that is used with the PE power supply (the custom cable is another $50).  Finally, I will be sending in my SB for the enthusiast analog mods sometime down the road.  I've read in these AC forums that the modified SB is better than some of the best DAC's around, and for less money to boot. 

Here is a link to the upgrade info in case anyone is interested, as well as a beta tester's opinion of Wayne's modded Parts Express power supply.  It's a great value for those who cannot swing the more expensive PSU's. 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69738.0

[Bill@LakeGeorge]

So for the record the power supply does make a difference.

For the record, I picked up that cheap Parts Express power supply that Wayne recommended to use with the Duet.  I am connected via the analogs of the SB, and it did in fact make a difference.

[Charles Calkins]

Yep it sure does. BUT!!! Don't bother with a middle of the pack power supply. Get the best Wayne1 has to offer for your system. You'll never be sorry you did.

                                             Cheers
                                             Charlie

[Bob in St. Louis]

Yep it sure does. BUT!!! Don't bother with a middle of the pack power supply. Get the best Wayne1 has to offer for your system. You'll never be sorry you did.

                                             Cheers
                                             Charlie

Ditto that! 

[Nuance]

So for the record the power supply does make a difference.

While connected using analogs, yes it does; I never doubted it would.  I haven't had any luck getting an increase in sound quality when using aftermarket power supplies and a digital connection, but that conversation has passed and doesn't need to be revisited. 

So to be clear, in my system with my gear, the power supply makes a difference in sound over the stock Duet unit when connected via the analogs to my preamp.  This is probably because it's no longer a switching power supply.  YMMV, of course.

Does anyone know where to purchase a pre-made felix (well, multiple felix's)? 

[zybar]

So for the record the power supply does make a difference.

For the record, I picked up that cheap Parts Express power supply that Wayne recommended to use with the Duet.  I am connected via the analogs of the SB, and it did in fact make a difference.

To my ears, absolutely!!

George