[edmondwolfman]

Been hanging out here for a little while now. I came here after seeing the glowing reviews on the Songtowers. Upon further review I became aware of the HT2-TLs. The Songtowers are around $1800 and to make a fair comparison one would consider the RT which adds another $700 so the Songtower RT is approximately $2500. The HT2-TL starts at around $4000. With the great reviews the Songtowers have garnered are the HT2-TLs so much better that they would warrant the extra $1500? And that's before you consider any of the add ons

[Big Red Machine]

Yes

[edmondwolfman]

Yes

Hey Big Red Machine, quit beating around the bush and answer the question

[Art_Chicago]

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65845.0

welcome to the forum. Check this thread, it may turn out to be useful

[oneinthepipe]

Having owned both speakers, I think the HT2-TL are worth the additional 1500.00 in cost over the ST RT. A more difficult decision would be, from a monetary perspective, unless money were no object, in which case this post wouldn't exist, is whether to purchase the ST OWII for 1800.00 or the HT2-TL for 4000.00.

A better speaker comparison, IMO, would be between the HT2 and the HT2-TL.  They are the same speaker except the HT2-TL has a transmission line cabinet with thicker walls and a satin black baffle, although the HT2-TL can be ordered without the black baffle and with thinner cabinet walls.

Other options would be an additional cost with any of the speakers.

[DMurphy]

Been hanging out here for a little while now. I came here after seeing the glowing reviews on the Songtowers. Upon further review I became aware of the HT2-TLs. The Songtowers are around $1800 and to make a fair comparison one would consider the RT which adds another $700 so the Songtower RT is approximately $2500. The HT2-TL starts at around $4000. With the great reviews the Songtowers have garnered are the HT2-TLs so much better that they would warrant the extra $1500? And that's before you consider any of the add ons

There's no simple answer to that question, because no one has your particular tastes.  And no one values the extra $ in exactly the same way you do.  But part of the answer depends on how important added bass extension and power handling is to you.  That should be your main concern.  The crossover integration is very similar for both speakers.  The ST's have better dispersion at the top of the woofer range, the HT2's may have a little more detail in the midrange.  I think it's a wash in that department.   And when I listened to the ST RT's vs. the HT2TL's sitting next to people who claimed to prefer the HT2's, my reaction was that they were going on price and not on actual sound (other than bass extension). 

[Vulcan00]

lThere's no simple answer to that question, because no one has your particular tastes.  And no one values the extra $ in exactly the same way you do.  But part of the answer depends on how important added bass extension and power handling is to you.  That should be your main concern.  The crossover integration is very similar for both speakers.  The ST's have better dispersion at the top of the woofer range, the HT2's may have a little more detail in the midrange.  I think it's a wash in that department.   And when I listened to the ST RT's vs. the HT2TL's sitting next to people who claimed to prefer the HT2's, my reaction was that they were going on price and not on actual sound (other than bass extension).

  Very interesting reply.  Mr Murphy I appreciate your honest interpretation.

[edmondwolfman]

Been hanging out here for a little while now. I came here after seeing the glowing reviews on the Songtowers. Upon further review I became aware of the HT2-TLs. The Songtowers are around $1800 and to make a fair comparison one would consider the RT which adds another $700 so the Songtower RT is approximately $2500. The HT2-TL starts at around $4000. With the great reviews the Songtowers have garnered are the HT2-TLs so much better that they would warrant the extra $1500? And that's before you consider any of the add ons

There's no simple answer to that question, because no one has your particular tastes.  And no one values the extra $ in exactly the same way you do.  But part of the answer depends on how important added bass extension and power handling is to you.  That should be your main concern.  The crossover integration is very similar for both speakers.  The ST's have better dispersion at the top of the woofer range, the HT2's may have a little more detail in the midrange.  I think it's a wash in that department.   And when I listened to the ST RT's vs. the HT2TL's sitting next to people who claimed to prefer the HT2's, my reaction was that they were going on price and not on actual sound (other than bass extension).

Thanks for the feedback Dennis. I'm not all that concerned with the bass from my FL and FR. I have a good 15" sub and don't mind using it when playing stereo music I drive my FL and FR with an Emotiva RPA-2 amp rated at 350W into a 4 Ohm load so it should drive the Songtowers or HT2-TLs just fine I think.

[oneinthepipe]

Even in my tiny room, I thought that I could strain the ST mid-woofers with bass heavy material at loud volumes.  The HT2-TL has much deeper bass extension.  I think the ST RT sound wonderful, but I like the 10hz of deeper bass extension.  In my room, with the limited space and suspended hardwood floors, I can't play bass-heavy material very loud, however.

Dennis knows these speakers much better than I know them, and his theory that listeners prefer the more expensive model to the less expensive model probably has merit, particularly when the speakers were produced by the same manufacturer, and the differences in expense are not related solely to cosmetic options.

[earthbound]

I don't speak in audiophile terms, but after listening to the HT2-TL and the ST ribbon side by side at AKFest the difference was dramatic to my ears. Maybe it was the extended bass that grabbed most of my attention as Dennis thinks, I can't say for sure, but my overall impression was that the HT2-TL was just more "right" and had greater musical realism than the ST ribbon. I should add that I had already ordered a pair of HT-2TLs "sight unheard" so I needed to justify my purchase of those over the ST, and was therefore not unbiased, but still . . .

[mathgeek97]

I'm not all that concerned with the bass from my FL and FR. I have a good 15" sub and don't mind using it when playing stereo music I drive my FL and FR with an Emotiva RPA-2 amp rated at 350W into a 4 Ohm load so it should drive the Songtowers or HT2-TLs just fine I think.

Here are another two options if you have the space and WAF isn't an such an issue.  Get SongTowers and spend the money saved on a second matching sub.  Or, you could get SongTowers, sell your old sub, and let Jim build you a matching Rythmik sub.

-Kevin (who ordered HT2-TLs sight unheard, too)

[fsimms]

And when I listened to the ST RT's vs. the HT2TL's sitting next to people who claimed to prefer the HT2's, my reaction was that they were going on price and not on actual sound (other than bass extension). 

I am surprised to hear you say that.  Listening to the SongTowers and my HT1's in my condo,  the difference in excitement of the music was very substantial.  It wasn't due to the bass.   

Bob

[DMurphy]

And when I listened to the ST RT's vs. the HT2TL's sitting next to people who claimed to prefer the HT2's, my reaction was that they were going on price and not on actual sound (other than bass extension). 

I am surprised to hear you say that.  Listening to the SongTowers and my HT1's in my condo,  the difference in excitement of the music was very substantial.  It wasn't due to the bass.   

Bob

It's possible we're excited by different things.  I'm most familair with the regular HT2 vs ST RT, although I have heard the HT2 TL on several occasions.  The crossovers of the two HT2's are identical.  I think the HT2 TL has a slightly warmer sound due to the fuller bass, and I'm sure some people would prefer that even if the bass didn't actually go any lower.  I personally prefer a leaner sound.  I hope to have the HT1 TL cabinets for testing soon.  Then we can really get confused together. 

[Nuance]

Been hanging out here for a little while now. I came here after seeing the glowing reviews on the Songtowers. Upon further review I became aware of the HT2-TLs. The Songtowers are around $1800 and to make a fair comparison one would consider the RT which adds another $700 so the Songtower RT is approximately $2500. The HT2-TL starts at around $4000. With the great reviews the Songtowers have garnered are the HT2-TLs so much better that they would warrant the extra $1500? And that's before you consider any of the add ons

There's no simple answer to that question, because no one has your particular tastes.  And no one values the extra $ in exactly the same way you do.  But part of the answer depends on how important added bass extension and power handling is to you.  That should be your main concern.  The crossover integration is very similar for both speakers.  The ST's have better dispersion at the top of the woofer range, the HT2's may have a little more detail in the midrange.  I think it's a wash in that department.   And when I listened to the ST RT's vs. the HT2TL's sitting next to people who claimed to prefer the HT2's, my reaction was that they were going on price and not on actual sound (other than bass extension). 

+1.  Couldn't have said it better myself.

[fsimms]

It's possible we're excited by different things.

I think you hit the nail on the head!  It just shows that we have to rely on our own hearing.

My father used to run radio remotes from night clubs for RCA.  He always would strive for the sound that reminded him of his days in the clubs. 

I'm most familair with the regular HT2 vs ST RT, although I have heard the HT2 TL on several occasions.  The crossovers of the two HT2's are identical.  I think the HT2 TL has a slightly warmer sound due to the fuller bass, and I'm sure some people would prefer that even if the bass didn't actually go any lower.  I personally prefer a leaner sound.  I hope to have the HT1 TL cabinets for testing soon.  Then we can really get confused together.

I will be eagerly waiting for your comments on the new HT1 TL.

Warmest Regards.

Bob

[jsalk]

This has been an interesting thread and I thought I'd just throw in a few observations.

First, we have had three owners upgrade from SongTowers to HT2-TL's so far and all three regard this as a significant upgrade.  So I think there is more at play here than simply the cost differential. 

From comments I have received and from my own personal listening, I would describe the major difference between these models as the ability to scale deeper bass.

As an example, all of our speakers do quite a good disappearing act and provide a reasonable illusion that the performers are actually in the room with you.  But with most models, that illusion begins to fall slightly short in the bass area (as would be expected).

The HT3's scale bass appropriately for the performance and extend the illusion through the bass regions.  Play a double bass on the HT3's and it is as if it is being played in the room.  With the SongTowers, the bass is mostly there, but the illusion of a performer playing live in front of you is not as realistic.  At these lower frequencies, the bass does not quite scale appropriately to create the illusion.

In that regard, the HT2-TL's will get you closer than the SongTowers.  When it comes to low bass, there is no substitute for displacement.  And the HT2-TL's simply have more displacement than the SongTowers.

There may be slightly more detail with the W18's in the HT2-TL's.  But when people describe the difference to me, they do not generally refer to midrange detail.  Most of their comments are centered around bass response and they feel the HT2-TL's are superior in this regard (which would only make sense due to the increased displacement of the drivers).

For certain types of music, it is not an issue.  Classical music, for example, does not generally have a great deal of low frequency content (this is not a universal statement, but a general one).  In that case, the difference between these speakers may not be all that great.  But with other types of music, the bass extension and scale of the HT2-TL's is of great benefit.

That said, if either of these speakers were the only ones I had, I would not be at all unhappy. As most people know, I regard midrange response as being by far the most important.  That is where 80% of the information is contained.  And I think that all of our speakers perform very well in this regard (or we wouldn't have introduced them).  As you move up in cost, the differences between models will be found mainly in the transparency of the top end and the extension of the bass response.  That's about as easy as I can explain it and hope that helps.

- Jim

[edmondwolfman]

This has been an interesting thread and I thought I'd just throw in a few observations.

First, we have had three owners upgrade from SongTowers to HT2-TL's so far and all three regard this as a significant upgrade.  So I think there is more at play here than simply the cost differential. 

From comments I have received and from my own personal listening, I would describe the major difference between these models as the ability to scale deeper bass.

As an example, all of our speakers do quite a good disappearing act and provide a reasonable illusion that the performers are actually in the room with you.  But with most models, that illusion begins to fall slightly short in the bass area (as would be expected).

The HT3's scale bass appropriately for the performance and extend the illusion through the bass regions.  Play a double bass on the HT3's and it is as if it is being played in the room.  With the SongTowers, the bass is mostly there, but the illusion of a performer playing live in front of you is not as realistic.  At these lower frequencies, the bass does not quite scale appropriately to create the illusion.

In that regard, the HT2-TL's will get you closer than the SongTowers.  When it comes to low bass, there is no substitute for displacement.  And the HT2-TL's simply have more displacement than the SongTowers.

There may be slightly more detail with the W18's in the HT2-TL's.  But when people describe the difference to me, they do not generally refer to midrange detail.  Most of their comments are centered around bass response and they feel the HT2-TL's are superior in this regard (which would only make sense due to the increased displacement of the drivers).

For certain types of music, it is not an issue.  Classical music, for example, does not generally have a great deal of low frequency content (this is not a universal statement, but a general one).  In that case, the difference between these speakers may not be all that great.  But with other types of music, the bass extension and scale of the HT2-TL's is of great benefit.

That said, if either of these speakers were the only ones I had, I would not be at all unhappy. As most people know, I regard midrange response as being by far the most important.  That is where 80% of the information is contained.  And I think that all of our speakers perform very well in this regard (or we wouldn't have introduced them).  As you move up in cost, the differences between models will be found mainly in the transparency of the top end and the extension of the bass response.  That's about as easy as I can explain it and hope that helps.

- Jim

Thanks for the response Jim. I find it pretty cool that you and Dennis jump in here and converse with the gang  Let me ask this, if one of the biggest differences is in bass extension and one had a good sub, would the Songtowers along with a good sub crossed over appropriately get close to the HT2-TLs? I know some people absolutely won't use a sub when they play "stereo" music but I don't really mind doing that. If your sub is setup correctly so that it doesn't draw attention to itself and you just "hear" the bass as part of the music, I can live with that. No thumping, no booming just filled in bottom end.

[fsimms]

Thanks for the response Jim. I find it pretty cool that you and Dennis jump in here and converse with the gang   Let me ask this, if one of the biggest differences is in bass extension and one had a good sub, would the Songtowers along with a good sub crossed over appropriately get close to the HT2-TLs? I know some people absolutely won't use a sub when they play "stereo" music but I don't really mind doing that. If your sub is setup correctly so that it doesn't draw attention to itself and you just "hear" the bass as part of the music, I can live with that. No thumping, no booming just filled in bottom end.

You didn't ask me, but I did integrate the SongTowers to a sub with a $7000 Tact preamp.   It did improve the SongTowers to a very nice degree.  The midrange seemed to improve too!   I still didn't think it was in the class of my HT1's.  It did sound very good. Just my own opinon.  I hope Jim will still reply!

Bob

[scp2]

Ok that opens another question....if OP is going to run a quality sub or two..why not throw HT1's in the mix? Would that be better SQ than the ST's or maybe even the HT2-TL's at a price point closer to the ST's?

[Nuance]

^ ooo - good question.  That's definitely an option for those who don't have the space for towers.  Of course, the answer is going to vary from person to person since sound is so subjective.  It's definitely something to consider, though.