Re: How to rip Hi-Res

DSD_Mastering · « **Reply #20 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 03:05 am »

Quote from: Philistine on 10 Jul 2009, 03:15 pm

I've got a mountain of SACD's, and I see no chance of ever being able to rip these - I'm not sure what the legality on this is but it would be cool if a third party service could rip these on the basis that individuals provide proof of ownership of the original disc.
Phil

What's it worth to you? What will the market bear??

Regards,

jqp · « **Reply #21 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 03:32 am »

Quote from: strat95 on 16 Oct 2009, 01:54 am

So I just performed a test to see if duplicate rips from a DVD are identical.

I took a copy of a DVD that I have, the read surface is flawless without any scratches or blemishes.
I placed it in my Samsung SH-203B DVD drive and used CloneDVD2 from Slysoft to rip an ISO file of the single layer DVD. I repeated the ripping process a second time and the ISO file obtained was identical in size when listed in Windows Explorer. A right click/properties on each file showed that the files sizes were identical down to the last byte. I ran a piece of software that looks for identical files and lists the results. The program is called DiskState by Raxco and it generates a CRC code for each file. If duplicate CRCs are found, a list is generated to show which files are duplicates. I have used this program on my entire system out of curiosity and it was able to track down multiple duplicates in various locations.

The bottom line is that DiskState does not recognize the 2 rips as being exactly identical. Keep in mind that this conclusion only applies to the rips created by CloneDVD2. I would have to do further testing with the other 2 pieces of software mentioned in this thread to see if the audio rips, when duplicated from the same source disc, are identical.

I wonder if there is any info on this topic in the Hydrogenaudio forums? I'm going to go have a look.

TV

I am thinking that 2 ripped files will probably not be identical in every way, whereas duplicate files such as operating system files or application files on your hard drive may be identical. The reason might be that a ripped file probably has time and date info as a part of the rip. Also error correction data,, which I believe is a part of DVDs as well as CDs which may be more 'random', thus a difference. Just a thought.

Also many times files are actually merely a container for data. Such a file may be a standard size, say 1GB. Inside the 'conatiner' there may only be say 897MB of data but the file size shows 1GB. Another 1GB file may contain a different amount of data, say 246MB, but it is in that 1GB 'container'.

Audioclyde · « **Reply #22 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 07:54 pm »

I have successfully ripped the 2 channel tracks off my Jackson Browne Running On Empty DVD-Audio; however, these are 24/192, and I use a MW Transporter and thus am limited to 96khz. How should I best 'downconvert' to 96khz? I have Sample Manager (on computer at home), so that may be a possibility. I rip to wav/aif files, so I'm thinking the flac/SOX plug-in isn't an easy workaround for me....any suggestions will be most appreciated!

thanks,

Randy

ted_b · « **Reply #23 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 09:04 pm »

Yes, Sample manager or a simple convert to a SOX compatible (FLAC or Ogg) format. A FLAC conversion would take less than a minute via DBPoweramp, FLAC front end or whatever, and the Squeeze server would read it natively and easily..

Audioclyde · « **Reply #24 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 01:01 pm »

Thanks Ted. I should have stated from the start, my music library is on a Mac mini. I converted a couple of the songs to flac. I also imported a couple of the wav files into Itunes (I've always used Itunes for file organization...). Interestingly, the Transporter will play both the flac file, and also the wav file (although both Itunes and the Squeeze software state the wav file is 24/192)...so I'm trying to figure out where the 'downconversion' to 96 is taking place with the wav file?

Another downside is that I don't having any tagging data showing up in the Squeeze software this way, so I still have to figure out the best way to go.

As you can tell, I'm not sure I understand all this too well

!

Audioclyde · « **Reply #25 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 04:12 pm »

Figured out that I could save my files in Apple Lossless format and retain the tags, and the files still reflect their 24/192 nature (as compared to converting to AIF, which converts to 16 bit). The apple lossless files have the mp4 extension, and I'm hoping they will play (not at home where the system is now so can't test).

ted_b · « **Reply #26 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 04:16 pm »

You should be fine with Apple Lossless. Good luck.

Audioclyde · « **Reply #27 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 04:18 pm »

Thanks. For some reason Sample Manager analyzes the 24/192 wav files and gives me the message "unsupported audio file", so at this point haven't been able to use that software to either downconvert to 96.

avta · « **Reply #28 on:** 22 Nov 2009, 12:40 am »

What are your favorite DVD rippers for use with Mac OS ?

firedog · « **Reply #29 on:** 24 Dec 2009, 03:21 pm »

Just a note: an acquaintance owns a Linn music server - it has no internal HD, but is setup to network to a PC or External HD and playback files up to 24/192. It also has a plugin for using it with SqueezeCenter/SqueezeServer.

He plays 24/192 files through the SS interface. He claims SS will play files above 96k resolution without downsampling if it is connected to machine that accepts those hi-res files natively.

ted_b · « **Reply #30 on:** 16 Apr 2010, 02:35 pm »

Here are two new documents I've found over on the Surround Google Group website. They are the DVDAexplorer user manual in html, and a nice how-to for ripping DVD-A to FLAC (same process as I described, with a few more screenshots).

http://surroundsound.googlegroups.com/web/DVD-Audio+Explorer+User+Manual+17.06.08.html?gda=TocmMF4AAABa5S46sSFQ5Ob3Yk8k2KcJ19zY5vGw7aWECqCFG3jjQehHv0MIOm7dxAxU9EAsuTADy8hj1ywpiFjEbwT_n7uViBO0zAWl_EYva0eDLdmNIeOwpdWz5ftt1dlzlu5J-bE&gsc=8-cpvy4AAACyjkZzBh5tFgdIyRWUtawU6UqfibKP_G_W2zhvpj7JySED57ZgFQAGV9SQARzJfks

http://groups.google.com/group/surroundsound/web/guide-for-ripping-dvd-a-to-flac

ted_b · « **Reply #31 on:** 19 Jul 2010, 06:27 pm »

UPDATE:
Now that DVD Audio Extractor has been updated to handle all DVD-based audio (including MLP-based DVD-Audio and HDAD discs) our good friend Chris Connaker (founder, Computer Audiophile) wrote this well-detailed guide to ripping that handles all three popular DVD audio formats (DVD-Video discs, DVD-Audio discs and HDAD discs). He even gave me some kudos, which is nice (said in Bill Murray voice) Enjoy!!

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/How-Rip-DVD-Audio-DVD-Video-Audio-And-HDAD-Discs

DaveKen · « **Reply #32 on:** 15 Aug 2010, 09:33 pm »

Hi Guys,
I stumbled on this circle this morning and, thanks to the information posted here I have already ripped a couple of DVD audio discs to 24/96 and played them with very good results. I am using the free 30 day trial of DVDAExtractor.
I apologise if this is a numptie question (some say the only numptie question is he one that isn't asked

so here goes) but I have a number of SACD and HDCD discs. I can play them all fine but would like to rip them to FLAC for playing on foobar - is any software available to enable this?
Thanks for any help.
Dave.

ted_b · « **Reply #33 on:** 16 Aug 2010, 12:41 am »

Quote from: DaveKen on 15 Aug 2010, 09:33 pm

Hi Guys,
I stumbled on this circle this morning and, thanks to the information posted here I have already ripped a couple of DVD audio discs to 24/96 and played them with very good results. I am using the free 30 day trial of DVDAExtractor.
I apologise if this is a numptie question (some say the only numptie question is he one that isn't asked so here goes) but I have a number of SACD and HDCD discs. I can play them all fine but would like to rip them to FLAC for playing on foobar - is any software available to enable this?
Thanks for any help.
Dave.

Dave,
Hi and welcome aboard! SACD is not rippable but by very expensive pro transfer equipment; it is a proprietary format. HDCD, which is basically an encoded redbook cd format, is indeed rippable...nothing special needed. As long as the rip is bit eprfect (EAC or DB Poweramp are two good redbook rippers) then the HDCD encoding should be maintained just fine.

golfugh · « **Reply #34 on:** 16 Aug 2010, 05:06 am »

You can rip the CD layer off of a hybrid SACD; other than that as Ted said SACDs are not rippable.

DaveKen · « **Reply #35 on:** 16 Aug 2010, 06:23 pm »

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the two helpful replies.
A few years ago, before, I got into hi-fi, I bought a Sony Vaio VGX-XL201 MM PC, mainly for the fact that it put the internet and a PC in a single box (and the fact that my local Sony retail outlet was selling them off at around half price when I was in the market for a new PC

). Included in the preloaded software was a programme called SonicStage Mastering Studio which I have subsequently discovered allowed me to rip (?) music into SACD (DSD) format and record it on a disc. I had the odd bit of trouble with the PC which involved it going back to Sony in Belgium (IIRC) a couple of times to be put right. Sometime later I found out that the DSD recording aspect of SonicStage Mastering Studio would no longer work. How this came about I have no idea but it still refuses to let me record in DSD format.
So, it was possible at one time to transpose recorded music into DSD (SACD) format in a home environment and therefore I am surprised that some knowledgeable geek out there has not found out how to reverse the process.
I can't be the only person to have one of these PCs so does anyone out there know how to reinstate the DSD recording aspect of SonicStage Mastering Studio, please.
Dave.

soundpro69 · « **Reply #36 on:** 11 Sep 2010, 10:36 pm »

Quote from: DaveKen on 16 Aug 2010, 06:23 pm

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the two helpful replies.
A few years ago, before, I got into hi-fi, I bought a Sony Vaio VGX-XL201 MM PC, mainly for the fact that it put the internet and a PC in a single box (and the fact that my local Sony retail outlet was selling them off at around half price when I was in the market for a new PC ). Included in the preloaded software was a programme called SonicStage Mastering Studio which I have subsequently discovered allowed me to rip (?) music into SACD (DSD) format and record it on a disc. I had the odd bit of trouble with the PC which involved it going back to Sony in Belgium (IIRC) a couple of times to be put right. Sometime later I found out that the DSD recording aspect of SonicStage Mastering Studio would no longer work. How this came about I have no idea but it still refuses to let me record in DSD format.
So, it was possible at one time to transpose recorded music into DSD (SACD) format in a home environment and therefore I am surprised that some knowledgeable geek out there has not found out how to reverse the process.
I can't be the only person to have one of these PCs so does anyone out there know how to reinstate the DSD recording aspect of SonicStage Mastering Studio, please.
Dave.

Dave, hi!

First off, I don't know how to restore the functionality of your SonicStage Mastering Studio, but I have heard some mention of the possibilities you mention at a conference by Gus Skinas at the 2009 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in Denver, CO (USA). They have a website where all things DSD are discussed: http://www.sa-cd.net/ It branches out into a Forum section and several other links. No instant gratification. You will need to explore it patiently, but there is a whole new world of information about keeping the DSD standard and the things that can be done and how... They created something called a DSD disc which can be shared as a file and contains pure DSD...

That being said, the whole secrecy of the deal seems to me more of Sony's wishful thinking towards keeping the DSD encoding as synonym of supreme fidelity than a true trend, as they would like to portray it. But that is only my personal opinion.

Your question is a valid one, but I see one small confusion that needs to be clarified. DSD is only a way to encode digital data (an open format according to Gus Skinas - who knew

). Think PCM. SACD is a close, un-rippable, proprietary, optical medium owned and policed by Sony that uses only DSD as their sole encoding format. Think red book CD.

So if this Sony software you mention can play DSD, shouldn't someone have figured out a way to rip SACDs? It is two very different things. Read DSD files? Not only is possible but it is now encouraged by Sony (trying to not loose DSD as a viable archiving and HiEnd format). Getting to the DSD files encrypted in an SACD disc? That's another story.

I ignore the methods mentioned above "by very expensive pro transfer equipment". I wish ted_b would elaborate on those. Would you Ted please? I would love to know how.

The only method I know of, is not technically "ripping". But since there are some hardware devices (like the early Oppo players) that convert the DSD digital stream off an SACD to a PCM HiRez stream and output it via S/PIDIF, you could theoretically capture that digital info into a workstation and create WAV files with it... Basically you would need to "re-create" the tracks from scratch from the format and channel standpoint (think multi-channel)... Not to mention meta data... I have read of someone who has done it though.

If anyone knows a better way, please share.

Cheers!

Gabe.

ted_b · « **Reply #37 on:** 12 Sep 2010, 03:58 pm »

Quote from: soundpro69 on 11 Sep 2010, 10:36 pm

I ignore the methods mentioned above "by very expensive pro transfer equipment". I wish ted_b would elaborate on those. Would you Ted please? I would love to know how.

I'll let Bruce (Brown, Puget Sound award-winning engineer who "rips" DSD from SACD for Chesky's HDTracks online website store, and who works with DSD everyday) get into the details, but suffice it to say that he uses expensive professional EMM labs and Digital Audio Denmark (DAD) AX24 converters to go from DSD to very hirez DXD, before doing the PCM conversion. He uses 24/88.2k (instead of the better and still integer perfect 24/176.4k) because the files sizes are more manageable for download.

Quote from: soundpro69 on 11 Sep 2010, 10:36 pm

The only method I know of, is not technically "ripping". But since there are some hardware devices (like the early Oppo players) that convert the DSD digital stream off an SACD to a PCM HiRez stream and output it via S/PIDIF

Gabe, the Oppos do NOT send any SACD out via SPDIF, whether PCM or DSD. That all goes out HDMI or analog. In my thread about using HDMI de-embedders (like Atlona) I describe and review the process of grabbing Oppo's 24/882k DSD-to-PCM HDMI stream and sending it to a hi-end DAC via toslink or coax for wonderful hirez SACD playback. One could grab that stream and digitize it too (but I don't have the patience to handle all that...split the tracks, etc).

DSD_Mastering · « **Reply #38 on:** 12 Sep 2010, 05:15 pm »

To retrieve DSD information from an SACD you will need 3 things. A transport, converter and workstation.

Transport - We use the Playback Designs MPS-5 ($15k) or the EMM Labs CDSD-SE ($10k) to play an SACD. These machines use a proprietary ST-optical output that streams a DSD signal.

We use 2 methods to capture this DSD stream.

An EMM Labs ADC8-IV ($8500) will capture the ST-optical stream and convert it to SDIF-3, staying in the DSD format.

Then a Pyramix DSD/DXD workstation ($20k) captures in real-time, the DSD data stream.

Instead of the Pyramix, sometimes we use a Sony Sonoma workstation ($15k) that captures the ST-optical signal from the transport.

Once we have the DSD data, we have to convert it to PCM for HDtracks using a SRC software called Saracon ($2k).

As you can see this is expensive and time consuming to do.

We belive this is the only way to extract DSD data from an SACD. We spent a couple of years trying everything else.

soundpro69 · « **Reply #39 on:** 13 Sep 2010, 04:31 am »

Wow this is awesome!

Thank you all very much for this information!! Getting to know first hand how these SACDs became PCM downloads from HD Tracks (no less) is just amazing to me. I was wondering... But I just assumed that the original master would have been used for the transfer. Wouldn't that have been easier (and perhaps even cheaper)?

Anyway.

I will be re-reading this often and trying to delve into the HDMI de-embedders
threads as soon as I have a few minutes of spare time.

I really appreciate this info and your kindness guys. Thank you very much!

Gabe.