Quiet power: batteries, power conditioners, and regenerators

virtue · « **Reply #40 on:** 23 Nov 2009, 07:21 pm »

We've received a number of suggestions for offering good plug-in supplies.

Linear:

http://www.astroncorp.com/w28.shtml

Transformer:

http://www.antekinc.com/pdf/AN-2222.pdf
http://www.antekinc.com/pdf/PS-3NXX.pdf

Enclosures:

http://www.web-tronics.com/exalelen.html
http://contextengineering.com/index.html
http://www.rselectronics.com/SEO/Aluminum_Enclosures.aspx
http://www.rose-bopla.com/prod_group_pgs/application/Aluminum_Enclosures.htm
http://www.extrutech.com/products/enclosures.html
http://www.boxenclosures.com/
http://www.lmbheeger.com/products.asp?catid=68
http://www.rittal-corp.com/products/index.cfm?n1Id=1&n2Id=63&n3Id=95
http://www.industrial-enclosures.com/
http://www.hammondmfg.com/dwg.htm
http://www.mmmetals.com/pages/extrusion_profiles/aluminum_extrusion_profiles.htm
http://www.wakefield.com/products/fabricated_extruded_enclosures.cfm

Does any one have any experience with these suppliers?

Seth

wilsynet · « **Reply #41 on:** 21 Mar 2010, 04:15 pm »

The JT Dynamics Antek is considerably more than the Astron, but the Antek is unregulated. Both are fully assembled. What is the advantage of the JT Dynamics?

cynan · « **Reply #42 on:** 21 Mar 2010, 11:03 pm »

Quote from: wilsynet on 21 Mar 2010, 04:15 pm

The JT Dynamics Antek is considerably more than the Astron, but the Antek is unregulated. Both are fully assembled. What is the advantage of the JT Dynamics?

Other than the fact that the JT Dynamics is hand assembled by Jason and that it comes in a somewhat nicer enclosure, I would conjecture that there is no benefit of the Antek over the Astron. In fact, as you said yourself, as the Astron incorporates a voltage regulating circuit, it might even be moderately superior. Although, as the Antek supply purportedly has a very stable DC output stage, the real-world difference should be minor in most setups.

Now if you were to add a fancy voltage regulating output stage to the Antek (ie, bypass the output capacitors from the transformer and insert one of the regulating circuits acclaimed by Nuuk in this forum) you might have the pinnacle of Virtue PSUs. But, for what it's worth, I am skeptical as to whether this would be worth the increase in price over the Astron for most people (unless of course you could make one of these circuits yourself).

After debating about which high-current PSU to go with myself for my Virtue TWO and incomming Sensation, I have come to the conclusion, that for those wanting to remain congruent with the value-conscientious theme of the Virtue integrated amps, a battery setup like the GR research (or similar DIY kit) is ideal for higher sensitivity speakers which are particularly susceptible to background noise, while the Astron supply is likely the way to go for all other situations. And If you happen to know that you have clean AC, you may be able to stick with one of the lower cost AC power supplies even if you have a high-sensitivity setup.

classicjt2 · « **Reply #43 on:** 22 Mar 2010, 01:00 am »

I believe the differences between a stock Antek and the JT Dynamic power supply are a pair of 22uf film caps used as bypass for the large electrolytics (cleaner and faster top end), the rigid aluminum enclosure (which you could source elsewhere) and Jason's handiwork. There's no reason you couldn't build an identical ps to the JT Dynamic. Our household opted for the JT because it looks good next to the Sensation and we didn't want kitty to be licking any exposed fuses. I asked Jason to add a couple of changes for my personal JT power supply, and he was very accommodating.

I alternate between the JT Dynamic and Vinnie's Red Wine Audio Black Lightning. They're both great and have more in common than differences- great bass power and extension, beautifully layered three dimensional soundstage, and authority and effortlessness. The battery is quieter and cleaner and more liquid, the JT more punchy, and the highs are a bit more airy, using my approx. 90dB Shahinian Obelisks.

James

virtue · « **Reply #44 on:** 22 Mar 2010, 10:11 pm »

Versus DIY, you're paying for time, skill, support, and capital with the JT Dynamics or Black Lightening supplies. Vinnie's does some interesting proprietary things on his SMART board, the JT is mainly a service offering for those of you who don't want to be cutting sheet-metal, buying the little parts needed for a polished product, and assembling.

To save a buck you can buy the Antek supply or batteries directly over the internet and build them up yourself. For some folks, this is fun and satisfying, more than buying a finished product. I've seen cool boxes made of wood and more minimalistic rigs, like Zman's. For others, a drag.

The Astron is an interesting proposition... it comes "ready to go" from the factory (sans bullet cable) and it's regulated and can be "dialed up" to 30v (or 32v). You can also buy it elsewhere, sometimes cheaper.

What's wrong with the Astron? Not much. However, it's been noted that it's ugly and huge (which some people like actually), buzzes a bit (not affecting output), and isn't available in 240v (correction - I can have them custom made in 240v).

The decision is personal and it's my feeling that these are all high-value options.

Light-Echo · « **Reply #45 on:** 23 Mar 2010, 01:09 am »

Zman what are you using for an enclosure for your batteries? I have (2) 12v x 12ah and need an enclosure about 12w x 10d x 6h. I found this one at http://www.lmbheeger.com/products.asp?catid=16

A little pricey. But painted black it would look sweet. I spent the money and got a Soneil 2409SR and wiring kit from Mr Dodd hisself, so I either go with a decent enclosure like this or find / build a wood one.

Mind you, now that I think about it, Sean is putting my N3 x-overs into PE .25 piano black speaker cabinets (the plan so far)...... 12 x 10 x 7.5.... Maybe I can buy three .....

Hmmm

Regards
Dave

Light-Echo · « **Reply #46 on:** 23 Mar 2010, 01:40 am »

Zman

I was thinking of going the 'industrial neked' look also ... still might.

KFD

jtsnead · « **Reply #47 on:** 24 Mar 2010, 12:38 pm »

Light-Echo,

what amp and what batteries are you using?

Isn't it dangerous to be above 10ah

Light-Echo · « **Reply #48 on:** 24 Mar 2010, 11:25 pm »

Zman is correct, and actually I mis-stated, I am using two sealed lead acid 12v x 26ah batteries. I'll post a pic tomorrow if I remember.
I have them sitting at work on a work bench with the charger on them. I've been monitoring how the charger and the batteries have been getting along. They've been sitting at a solidly consistent 27.6v between the two but I've noticed an anomaly where the batteries seem to be switching voltages between themselves, one day they will be 13.9 and 13.6, the next they'll meter out exactly opposite at 13.6 and 13.9. Interesting. Seth says my M-901 is shipping this week. (insert smiley face here)

Regards
Dave

Light-Echo · « **Reply #49 on:** 25 Mar 2010, 01:43 am »

Zman

Actually what I'll be doing for the first little while after the amp burns in is trying my darnedest to determine if my ears are good enough to notice a difference between the system with the charger continuously on and then with occasional charging. GR Danny seems to think that there is no perceptible difference and if he can't tell, it's unlikely I will. But we shall see. Another more long term observation will be to see if the batteries prefer to be kept topped up or discharged and recharged occasionally. (I actually have 2 other of these batteries as spares) Any thoughts on THAT matter would be appreciated.

Hey Seth. I received my interconnect and wire. Thx man. You guys at Virtue are great!

Regards
KFD

Light-Echo · « **Reply #50 on:** 25 Mar 2010, 02:17 am »

Zman Have you posted your rig here anywhere?

I'm interested

Dave

Light-Echo · « **Reply #51 on:** 25 Mar 2010, 02:40 am »

Zman

A pic I thought you'd like!

Virtue interconnects, speaker cables, USB cable, and cryo'd Tenor and Soprano DIY wire (for the N3's ... I gave all my JPS wire to the Ninja for my x-overs)

Oh a nice little Cardas post in there. Of course you'll know of Zildjian.

The acoustic is a beautiful Garrison my lady gave to me one birthday that I've yet to do more with than tune. Dumb fingers!!!

KFD

Light-Echo · « **Reply #52 on:** 25 Mar 2010, 11:19 pm »

A pic of my battery power supply sans enclosure.

Regards
Dave

Bear · « **Reply #53 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 12:27 am »

Would their be any issues or benefits from using a high performance automotive battery? like say an optima?

How much battery would be needed to take ones system completely off the grid(other than a charging unit), including all sources, dac's, amps, pre's? is this feasable?

virtue · « **Reply #54 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 12:31 am »

Make sure what you choose is safe to use indoors!

littletree76 · « **Reply #55 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 12:52 am »

I suppose power conditioner instead of bank of batteries suit the purpose. Advantage of power conditioner is install-and-forget usage (no charging, deterioration and routine maintenance involved) and saving in installation space.

Considerations include whether the high cost is justifiable by improvement in sound quality and pros/cons between power conditioner and battery in term of the improvement. The main difference between these two technologies is isolation (power conditioner) or independent (battery) from noisy power grid.

Quote from: Bear on 26 Mar 2010, 12:27 am

Would their be any issues or benefits from using a high performance automotive battery? like say an optima?

How much battery would be needed to take ones system completely off the grid(other than a charging unit), including all sources, dac's, amps, pre's? is this feasable?

Light-Echo · « **Reply #56 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 01:04 am »

It's like swinging golf clubs indoors. Putter's fine. Driver not so much. Unless you have high ceilings. See? Everything is relative.
I'm using batteries only because the M-901 uses a 24v power supply which is conducive to a simple battery supply set-up. Using batteries eliminates all the concerns of power conditioning, $500.00 power cords, and all the other nonsense that probably wouldn't make much difference to my perceptive abilities. From what I understand all equipment takes the a.c. and turns it to d.c. somewhere in the process. It would seem an intuitive notion that to eliminate that step would be one step towards a more efficient system.

Nonetheless I don't know for sure. I am doing it because I've read in many forums that it's a very positive tweak, it's easy for me to do under my circumstances .... and it's got a sexy kind of fun-ness to it ...

I'll keep posting pics and my thoughts on the matter, if for no other reason than I get all these interesting replies from people that are similarly interested in this stuff.

Regards
Dave

Light-Echo · « **Reply #57 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 03:50 am »

When someone tries to give an objective opinion on how something sounds, it's subjective at the very best based upon what he can compare it to, and where you the reader can appreciate a similar experience. My opinion on how a battery supply will comparatively sound in my circumstance will be of little value to all of you out there unless I can help you compare it to something you can relate to. I am not going to be able to do one of them snazzy reviews where I can wax poetically and have it mean anything unless we share a common understanding of a given situation. Because I don't have a ton of experience with a bunch of different pieces of equipment which some of you may or may not relate to... I don't think my experience with my particular set up will mean all that much.

That being said, I have always been a lover of music. I believe that a lousy recording of a great piece of music will always trump a great recording of anything else. Will a great sound system help me enjoy my passion more? Only if I play great music through it. At the kind age of 50 I am still a relative newby to all things audiophile....when it comes to audio gear. But I have been a passionate musician for 37 of those years and I know what moves me. If one day I can share with any of you that a particular piece of music moved me, and I was listening to it through my battery powered M-901 and N3 speakers..... well then.... perhaps that is something we can appreciate together.

And I won't need no $500.00 power cord to experience it.

Regards
KFD

virtue · « **Reply #58 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 05:19 am »

I read somewhere that charging an LSA battery can be 95% efficient. That's pretty amazing isn't it?

Nuuk · « **Reply #59 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 08:35 am »

If anybody wants to run their whole system so that it is isolated from the mains, one method is to use batteries with inverters as described at:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/tours/definitive_audio_e.html

IMHO, the only way to know if battery power is better than a conditioner (and there are conditioners and conditioners) is to have the whole system running from each of them. And then, the difference will be down to how poor your mains system is in the first place (and how good the conditioner is).

As already stated, don't use automotive batteries indoors unless there is adequate ventilation. They give off gasses which can ignite and/or explode.

The other way to use batteries for the whole system is to bypass the AC supply in each piece of equipment and make some provision to connect the DC from the batteries. You may need to regulate that DC, ie in the case of a Logitech SB3 requiring a 5v supply rather than 12v. And if any of your equipment runs off split rails, you will need extra batteries to cover that.

And don't run it all off batteries and sit back and think "that's it". You may still have RFI to worry about too! Anyone for knitting?