[PGS3038]

Harbeth for me. Neutrality in tonal balance with midrange clarity and detail are a hallmark for their range, with good bass extension for their size.

[grsimmon]

Mirage (last generation)
Morrison Audio
Duevel
Linkwitz Labs
Martin Logan (most recent electrostats)
Ohm Walsch
Decware omni's

Gee, can you tell some of my biases?

Also,  though this is in response to the Axioms mentioned a number of years ago - they are not omnidirectional in launch pattern.  At all.  I'm really surprised to see that word used on their website to describe that model.

[Russell Dawkins]

Mirage (last generation)
Morrison Audio
Duevel
Linkwitz Labs
Martin Logan (most recent electrostats)
Ohm Walsch
Decware omni's

Gee, can you tell some of my biases?

You look like an omni and planar/dipole man! I notice you don't mention Magnepan. Do you dislike them?

[MtnHam]

You look like an omni and planar/dipole man! I notice you don't mention Magnepan. Do you dislike them?

And the best of all in this category- Sound Lab electrostatic panels, particularly the Ultimate U-1PX.

[grsimmon]

You look like an omni and planar/dipole man! I notice you don't mention Magnepan. Do you dislike them?

No, no dislike on my part.   Mine was definitely an incomplete list.  Others could include:

Magnepan
MBL
Mur Audio  (world's first omni electrostat!)
B&O  Beolab 5
etc.

My point being,   I prefer the open,  omni and "figure 8" sound for classical rather than what is typically produced from standard box speakers.

[S Clark]

There is something to be said for omni speakers for classical.  Although I've had many setups better than my old Design Acoustics D12's, they are still pretty good for orchestral classical.  Look carefully in the photo and you'll see my blue dodecahedrons in the background.

[steve in jersey]

No, no dislike on my part.   Mine was definitely an incomplete list.  Others could include:

Magnepan
MBL
Mur Audio  (world's first omni electrostat!)
B&O  Beolab 5
etc.

My point being,   I prefer the open,  omni and "figure 8" sound for classical rather than what is typically produced from standard box speakers.

That being the case , I would second Russell's Magnepan recommendation .

As long as you give the "Maggies" a bit of space to breathe in a room , they have the ability to present Classical (& just about any other Acoustical Music Genre) in a seemingly more natural manner than do dynamic speakers.

I have a pair of 2.7QR that I'm considering setting up in a room using a very unusual placement of the speakers. Rather than "firirng" the music straight into the room this placement aims the fronts of the panels at each other with the front edge of the panels slightly toed in toward the back wall.

I saw this on the "MUG" board over on AA many years ago & never tried it . It has a chance to work due to the
fact they're bipolar speakers.

 Disregarding  my insanity for a second , do try to demo the Magnepans.

[Duke]

Researcher David Griesinger has studied what makes a great seat in a concert hall.  He found that two elements must be in play: First, a clear stream of direct sound; and second, a clear stream of reverberant sound.  The key here is that the two be separated in time, rather than smeared together.   

Bringing this principle into the home listening room, it can be a challenge to get good differentiation between the direct and reverberant energy streams.  The enemy here is, the early reflections.   If we can impose a fairly long time delay between the arrival of the direct sound and the onset of significant reverberant energy, we can satisfy the two-streams requirement.  This isn't as esoteric as it sounds - Maggie and SoundLab and Martin Logan and Quad owners do it all the time!  By pulling their fairly directional dipole speakers out into the room a good five feet or so, they are imposing roughly 10 milliseconds of delay on the backwave energy, because of the path length of its bounce off the wall.   The 10 millisecond target comes from my own observations as a longtime dipole user, and is supported by Earl Geddes, who is a leading expert in the field of small-room acoustics and psychoacoustics.

(A quick tangent is in order:  In home audio systems, there is often a fundamental problem that needs to be addressed before we start worrying about meeting the requirements of the two-stream paradigm, and that is, the spectral balance of the reverberant field is usually wrong.  The vast majority of energy in the reverberant field starts out as off-axis sound, so we need to get the off-axis response right.  In general most omnis, dipoles, and other polydirectional speakers do a better in this area than most conventional cone-n-dome speakers.  Many speakers with rather aggressive pattern control (good horn or waveguide based systems) also do well in this area.) 

That 10-millisecond delay target is harder to meet with wide-pattern cone-n-dome speakers or omnis because they have more near-side-wall interaction.  And most speakers will have some floor and ceiling bounce, which fortunately the ear is not especially sensitive to despite the fact that they happen well before our 10 millisecond target. 

Personally I am not in favor of the overly aggressive use of absorption to soak up the energy in the early reflections.  Absorption is always more effective on short wavelengths than on longer ones, and this absorption happens to all reflections that hit the absorptive material, not just the first ones.  So the net effect is to roll off the high frequency energy in the reverberant sound, which is usually lacking in high frequency energy as it is. 

In my opinion the spectrally correct (and obviously well-energized) reverberant field of a good omni is beneficial, and especially so for classical music because it more closely approximates the concert hall experience.  But if we want to get closer to the experience we'd have in a really good seat in a concert hall, we should look at the two-stream paradigm, and try to get a clear time-differentiation between our direct and reverberant sound streams.   Imo dipoles, bipoles, and other well thought-out polydirectionals can deliver the goods if they are set up correctly.  And if we have the two-stream paradigm (and that 10-millisecond target) in mind, imo we are on the right track. 

[rajacat]

These 18" waveguide/15" woofer/1" compression driver loaded speakers do well with Classical,...IMO. I use them with a small, mixed swarm of 2- 6.5" tapped horns and one conventional  12" sealed sub. They're powered with inexpensive amps but they still sound good. They project a nice large sound stage, solid center image, locate instruments, etc. They're high efficiency. Huge dynamics. 15" woofer hits hard!   I'm slowly upgrading my electronics,  to ,hopefully, maximize their potential.

[tube-vds]

after more 40 years of experience as both a hifi listener and a musician, i can say that sound levels in a concert hall might seem very high, but indeed they are not.

it's huge sound, but not so loud in terms of dB.

only when you're part of the orchestra and are sitting behind some loud brass or timpany etc. it can be to loud (that's why many musicians use hearing protection).

next time you visit a concert take your iphone dB-app and test for yourself.

even when sitting in the 1-10 rows and in the middle of the concert hall - dB maximum at a hector berlioz concert of beethoven's no. 9 symphony will never show more than about 85 dB on your dB-app. it will not be 100% accurate - but it's a good mark for listening levels at home.

good listening starts with normal sound levels - if you hifi system only sounds nice at extremely high levels, something might be wrong with you setup. (or your ears).

[maty]

To listen orchestral music: open baffles with two big subwoofers 15" or 18" (closed) is a winner combination in a BIG room.

[rajacat]

To listen orchestral music: open baffles with two big subwoofers 15" or 18" (closed) is a winner combination in a BIG room.

Yeah, but a sealed midwoofer has impact that you can feel even at moderate volumes. Big cojones for big music. Complement it with a swarm of subs.

[ConfuciusSay]

Are even the MMG Maggies good or do you have to live up to the higher end models? I'm tempted by MMG if so, can't really afford higher at the moment 

[pwhinson]

I'll chime in.  Vandersteen, Thiel which is no longer available except used still has a huge following and is very transparent and true to timbres...get the 2.4se as it has good bass extension.  Its a total drop dead bargain used (there are a pair for sale right now on the west coast for $800).  If cost is no object, Rockport Technologies makes killer speakers, very articulate and accurate for a whole butt load of money though.  Revel.  I've had magnepans, sound labs, martin logans, and my present Thiels are still holding on but I'd love to have something that goes deeper so I'm looking into Salon2s and Vandersteen probably used 5a's.  TAD Evolution One's are awesome for classical.  I still think I'm likely to end up with Salon2s but I certainly intend to try to listen to a lot more.  Paradigm Persona series is a possibility but it seems they're a little hot on the top end but that's something Thiel's have been saddled with in the past which I find not to be true.  As usual speaker selection is a total ordeal because many dealers just don't have the speakers setup properly...for example the local dealer for Revel has no clue what he's doing for two channel reproduction so short of carrying in my 100 lb Pass labs amps (not gonna happen) its really impossible to properly judge them locally.

[pwhinson]

I like Magnepans but I would avoid the tiny ones like the plague.  I had them years ago.  It could be I had inferior amplification back then (I did), but inferior amplification is what these are most likely generally paired with.  AVOID.

Are even the MMG Maggies good or do you have to live up to the higher end models? I'm tempted by MMG if so, can't really afford higher at the moment 

[pwhinson]

Here in Atlanta I've pulled out my iphone and Sound Meter X app and found peaks approaching 95 and 100 db.  Its an old hall built in the early 1960s that seats about 2000 and is a little on the dry side acoustically.  Generally I agree with what you're saying however true fff peaks will break 95db from my seat half way back.

after more 40 years of experience as both a hifi listener and a musician, i can say that sound levels in a concert hall might seem very high, but indeed they are not.

it's huge sound, but not so loud in terms of dB.

only when you're part of the orchestra and are sitting behind some loud brass or timpany etc. it can be to loud (that's why many musicians use hearing protection).

next time you visit a concert take your iphone dB-app and test for yourself.

even when sitting in the 1-10 rows and in the middle of the concert hall - dB maximum at a hector berlioz concert of beethoven's no. 9 symphony will never show more than about 85 dB on your dB-app. it will not be 100% accurate - but it's a good mark for listening levels at home.

good listening starts with normal sound levels - if you hifi system only sounds nice at extremely high levels, something might be wrong with you setup. (or your ears).

[Russell Dawkins]

Here in Atlanta I've pulled out my iphone and Sound Meter X app and found peaks approaching 95 and 100 db.  Its an old hall built in the early 1960s that seats about 2000 and is a little on the dry side acoustically.  Generally I agree with what you're saying however true fff peaks will break 95db from my seat half way back.

tube-vds has not visited this site since July 2016, so he won't see your comment.

[jmpsmash]

I have done the exercise of measuring classical concert dB on my phone app and then comparing that to my home listening level. I used the same phone/app so the absolute level doesn't matter.

At home, i listen at around 8-10dB higher than in concert. And that's sitting around row 7-10 at the concert hall. The sound from the real concert is not loud but large and encompassing, with great detail and dynamics. Even pizzicato from cello/doublebass can not only be heard, but felt. I have never experienced that in a home system at comparable level.

If i try to turn down my system to concert level dB then everything sound lifeless.

long way to go in this journey.

[Russell Dawkins]

From all reports, Gradient 1.4s deserve consideration in their ability to remove the listening room from the equation and reveal the recording acoustic, being cardioid in response through much of their range.

[Bioman]

I would go with GR Research LS-9 (Line Source), available used only; or GR Research NX-Otica w/Open Baffle subwoofers.  Either of these will be more affordable and may best most offerings at many times their price range.  The do Classical like nothing I have heard to date (dynamic range, sound staging, layering).  Just my experience as I have not heard many of the others mentioned.   Also, GR Research is still in business, several of those mentioned are not making updates, repairs difficult.