$200 rcvr beats $11k separates

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Letitroll98

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #80 on: 18 Apr 2011, 01:31 am »
If you read Dr Geddes results you can see that the ability of the amp to eliminate switching distortion at low volume settings is exactly why he found it to work so well, so his argument was the exact opposite of having only one volume setting that sounded good.  He also stated that this property was specific to this amp only and that other receivers did "suck" as werd so eloquently put it.

I don't know if Geddes' theory or his results hold water, I haven't heard the receiver.  But I wish people would at least take the time to read up on the background before posting erroneous statements.  Oh wait, this is the internet, nevermind. 
:duh:

Freo-1

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #81 on: 18 Apr 2011, 01:46 am »
Many prefer full-range sound from their mains, but I suppose we differ on the best way to go about getting great bass.  Dr. Geddes, who tested/recommended this amp, builds systems that involve multiple subs powered by rack ramps.

Oh yes, I can see where there are sonic benefits from the multi sub approach.   I just found that all things being equal, it's easier to get balanced sound across the entire spectrum with a proper mains speaker that reproduces full range.  I often use a vertical bi-amp setup (two Threshold s300) to improve overall clarity.  Sometimes, I like to use the s300 on the bottom, and use a Threshold SA-3 or a restored Threshold 400A on top for the class A sound.

satfrat

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #82 on: 18 Apr 2011, 03:24 am »
If you read Dr Geddes results you can see that the ability of the amp to eliminate switching distortion at low volume settings is exactly why he found it to work so well, so his argument was the exact opposite of having only one volume setting that sounded good.  He also stated that this property was specific to this amp only and that other receivers did "suck" as werd so eloquently put it.

I don't know if Geddes' theory or his results hold water, I haven't heard the receiver.  But I wish people would at least take the time to read up on the background before posting erroneous statements.  Oh wait, this is the internet, nevermind. 
 :duh:

Well there's 1 way to find out about this "worldbeating" receiver, EBAY has 2 auctions up now, currently a $.99 bid auction and a $100 bid auction.
 
Knock yourself out.  :thumb:
 
Cheers,
Robin

werd

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #83 on: 18 Apr 2011, 03:44 am »

Well there's 1 way to find out about this "worldbeating" receiver, EBAY has 2 auctions up now, currently a $.99 bid auction and a $100 bid auction.
 
Knock yourself out.  :thumb:
 
Cheers,
Robin

Its above 20 bucks now. I'm done bidding on this piece of heavenly magic.

mcgsxr

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #84 on: 18 Apr 2011, 01:51 pm »
An interesting thread.  Reminds me of a few years ago when other digital receivers were getting lots of positive press - Panny SAXR series (I owned 3), JVC (I owned 2) and the Teac I still own.

I see plenty of these D series receivers on Craigslist and Kijiji around Toronto, so I would think anyone in most areas of north america would have similar access to one of these units - prices seem to range between $50 and $150.

If I needed another receiver, I would take a run at one of these, for $50 or so, what do you have to lose?

cloudbaseracer

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #85 on: 18 Apr 2011, 01:59 pm »
An interesting thread.  Reminds me of a few years ago when other digital receivers were getting lots of positive press - Panny SAXR series (I owned 3), JVC (I owned 2) and the Teac I still own.

I am currently using the Panasonic SA-XR700 but it does not have a pre-amp out so that is why I am interested to find out which of the current Pioneer receivers match the topology of the 919 - not so interested in the 912.  I am getting the Abbey's so "high quality" speakers are not a problem.


JLM

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #86 on: 18 Apr 2011, 03:11 pm »
A man after my own heart (a speaker guy).   :D

Many years ago I stopped by and visited briefly with Irving (Bud) Fried in Philly.  His "listening room" looked like a cross between an old school (tall ceilings, hard walls, full height plate glass windows) and a hoarders episode (speakers and piles of audio magazines everywhere).  A cheap turntable on a card table and an Onkyo receiver ran any of six sets of speakers almost randomly set up.  Yep, a real speaker guy.   :thumb:

But I'm most doubtful (I'm not that much of an optimist).  I'm convinced that properly set up, (impedance matching throughout, correct signal strengths the whole way, appropriate wattage, etc.)  thoughtful/knowledgable designer/builders will come up with a better mousetrap for 55 times the price.

werd

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #87 on: 18 Apr 2011, 03:41 pm »
Try as I might, you're still not listening. It's not the volume control and it has nothing to do with the Pioneer Elite line, it's the lowest priced receivers we're talking about.  Again, not about price, it's their cheapest gear.  It's best if you take the time to go back and read the links to Dr Geddes internet posts, especially the one where he describes the way he tests for the switching distortion.  Again, I don't know if his opinions or theories hold water, if everyone here will quit linking the eBay auctions I might actually get one of the receivers at a low enough price to find out.  But absent reading the material, lets try again with the synopsis:

"If you read Dr Geddes results you can see that the ability of the amp to eliminate switching distortion at low volume settings is exactly why he found it to work so well, so his argument was the exact opposite of having only one volume setting that sounded good.  He also stated that this property was specific to this amp only and that other receivers did "suck" as werd so eloquently put it."


Letitroll

Are you refering to post 71? If so i don't read that assertion at all regarding the preamp volume crapping out. Show me the links.

Letitroll98

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #88 on: 18 Apr 2011, 05:20 pm »
Letitroll

Are you refering to post 71? If so i don't read that assertion at all regarding the preamp volume crapping out. Show me the links.

I don't have numbers on my display, musta not clicked that option, so I don't know which one is #71.  And I really do agree with you about most consumer grade receivers lacking in any comparative sound quality referenced to high quality components.  But Geddes says (I repeat, Geddes says, not me) that this one is different and he has compared it to separates and other receivers. 

I did some on line searching for reviews of the sound quality, very hard to find as most people are concerned with video switching and how well the GUI works, but for what I could find the reviews were very mixed at best regarding sound quality of the chip amp.  The VSX 814 appears to have the same chip and has the added benefit of a detachable power cord, but the reviews of the SQ trashed it, the VSX 912 received much better SQ reviews, have no idea if there is a difference in the preamp or something, the chassis appears identical.

Anyway, here's the links.  I may have also did some reading of links embedded in these posts, can't remember.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/151376-homster-how-i-learned-how-fix-horn-5.html

A thread discussing the measurements -
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/109147-geddes-distortion-measurements.html

srb

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #89 on: 18 Apr 2011, 05:55 pm »
I don't have numbers on my display, musta not clicked that option, so I don't know which one is #71.

Are you sure, it's right under the post title?
 

 
Steve

kevinh

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #90 on: 19 Apr 2011, 12:07 am »
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/151376-homster-how-i-learned-how-fix-horn-5.html

A thread discussing the measurements -
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/109147-geddes-distortion-measurements.html

The only comparison I could find in these threads between the Pioneer receiver and anything else was to a Sanyo receiver which measured poorly by his metrics and Dr. Geddes referred to as unlistenable. Hardly definitive.

As to the original poster's assertion that this Pioneer $200 rcvr beats $11k separates, I've no problem believing that at all, especially if his technical expert assembled the $11k system. If that advisor truly believed the Plinus and dartZeel share similar topologies, their advice is of questionable merit. The darZeel has a complementary output stage, whereas the Plinus a quasi-complementary output stage; hardly similar at all.....

FWIW





Those threads provide great information not only for the Pioneer Rec using the chip amp, but of any analog electronics you have or are considering buying.

What Earl's measurements boils down to:

Electronics with predominately 2nd and less 3rd harmonics and very little higher order harmonics. The correlates well with what we hear in well designed Tube electronics, especially SE Triode amps, Lynn Olsen writes about this in his articles over at:

http://nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html

not a commercial site BTW.

So a DHT guy and a speaker designer who seems agnostic about amps (as long as they sound good) see similar requirements in terms of TYPE of Distortion and Sound Quality.


Another observation that Earl makes is that the distortion decreases in an linear fashion as the output level is decreased. In some cases a amp with favorable distortion characteristics at high output levels will have more high order harmonics as the output level is decreased.

Then there is the other issue the lack of distortion at the zero crossing point in a push pull amp. The lack of zero crossover distortion has always been an advantage of Class A amps.

Earl references test of some chip amps that show a bad balance of Lower order distortion relative to Higher  order distortion and zero crossing distortion.

These findings are applicable to any preamp/amp combination. Getting that sort of performance from a 'cheap' receiver is pretty nice. These are great guidelines for any amp you might seek to buy or make.

The speakers he is using are 97db efficiency and an easy load to drive.  Of course a more robust power supply could handle more difficult loads.

ThomDP

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #91 on: 19 Apr 2011, 12:36 am »
There are plenty of Pioneer receiver reviews on Whathifi.com

http://www.whathifi.com/search/apachesolr_search/?filters=tid%3A379%20type%3Ahcmproduct%20tid%3A728&solrsort=created%20desc

There is review of what may be the European version of the vsx-912. And there is a brief blurb concerning the stereo performance of the reciever in the review.

http://www.whathifi.com/review/pioneer-vsx-920

I don't have numbers on my display, musta not clicked that option, so I don't know which one is #71.  And I really do agree with you about most consumer grade receivers lacking in any comparative sound quality referenced to high quality components.  But Geddes says (I repeat, Geddes says, not me) that this one is different and he has compared it to separates and other receivers. 

I did some on line searching for reviews of the sound quality, very hard to find as most people are concerned with video switching and how well the GUI works, but for what I could find the reviews were very mixed at best regarding sound quality of the chip amp.  The VSX 814 appears to have the same chip and has the added benefit of a detachable power cord, but the reviews of the SQ trashed it, the VSX 912 received much better SQ reviews, have no idea if there is a difference in the preamp or something, the chassis appears identical.

Anyway, here's the links.  I may have also did some reading of links embedded in these posts, can't remember.

Letitroll98

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #92 on: 19 Apr 2011, 03:17 am »

Well there's 1 way to find out about this "worldbeating" receiver, EBAY has 2 auctions up now, currently a $.99 bid auction and a $100 bid auction.
 
Knock yourself out.  :thumb:
 
Cheers,
Robin

Thanks Robin, I did, and will.  Should be here the last week of April.  I really like the 814 better as it has a detachable power cord which was listed as one of the upgrades performed by the OP, and it was silver (ooh, pretty).  And I thought about just getting a new model with HDMI etc. to replace my aging Nak HT receiver (two birds, one stone, you get the idea), but the VSX912 is the one being discussed and I didn't want any other possible variables even though they're listed as having the same chip amp, or at least same type of chip in the new models.

Quote from: Letitroll98 on Today at 01:20 PM

I don't have numbers on my display, musta not clicked that option, so I don't know which one is #71.

 
Are you sure, it's right under the post title?
 

Steve

Or maybe I'm just clueless.   Or old.  Or both.  :duh:   

satfrat

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #93 on: 19 Apr 2011, 03:26 am »
I'll be looking forward to hearing your thoughts but regardless, $110 for that receiver's a pretty damn good deal imho for any potential home theater and if it sounds good for music, more power to ya.  :thumb:
 
Cheers,
Robin

wushuliu

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #94 on: 19 Apr 2011, 03:38 am »
 :beer:

Letitroll98

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #95 on: 27 Apr 2011, 12:53 am »
A very quick update, receiver arrived today and installed tonight.  I don't want to draw any conclusions this early, nothings been switched back for comparison, but I gotta say, I'm pretty impressed.  Cold out of the box it sounded pretty good, and after a few hours seems to be trouncing my separates in clarity with instruments and voices sounding more real.  I have a few reservations and need way more time, but from expecting a cold, lifeless, brittle sound at startup, I'm quite frankly stunned.  Certainly worth the $100.   

wushuliu

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #96 on: 27 Apr 2011, 03:06 am »
A very quick update, receiver arrived today and installed tonight.  I don't want to draw any conclusions this early, nothings been switched back for comparison, but I gotta say, I'm pretty impressed.  Cold out of the box it sounded pretty good, and after a few hours seems to be trouncing my separates in clarity with instruments and voices sounding more real.  I have a few reservations and need way more time, but from expecting a cold, lifeless, brittle sound at startup, I'm quite frankly stunned.  Certainly worth the $100.

Just for some context: what are the separates it's being compared to?

cloudbaseracer

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #97 on: 27 Apr 2011, 04:25 am »
Are you comparing the Pioneer to the Nakamichi receiver?

Are you running digital into the Nakamichi?

Here is what Earl told me about his Pioneer 919 --  "My system is all digital right up until the power amps.  Then there is a single D/A (per channel) in the Pioneer, which is at a higher voltage level and not as big a problem to design when compared to a low voltage D/A such as in a CD player. "

I guess he doesn't use a DAC and allows the conversion to be done in the Pioneer.

werd

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #98 on: 27 Apr 2011, 06:17 am »
I guess he wants to be sure the Pioneer is blowing away his seperates....  :icon_lol:

Letitroll98

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #99 on: 27 Apr 2011, 02:27 pm »
This is exactly why I haven't posted a full review yet.  Everyone wants to jump the gun to be first in line to flame the unwary.  No it's not in the HT system so the 912 hasn't got near the Nak other than being unpacked in the living room.  My stereo system is no where near the level formerly employed by the OP, who I gather is in the audio business and has access to the finest components money can buy.  I need to get round to posting all of my systems in my profile, but for now I'm not ready to get trashed on this thread, if you absolutely need to gather ammunition I'm sure you can search through my posts. 

Presently I just threw the thing on top of my power amp and hooked my DAC into the CD inputs.  No tweaks, no ground effects enhancers, no isolators, no VPI bricks, no power cord ferrites.  The binding posts are so crappy my speaker cables nearly ripped them off, so I did dress them a bit.  It's playing into benign 8 ohm speakers as instructed, no into my Maggies.  I have yet to try the internal DAC.  So to be clear, I STILL HAVE SOME SIGNIFICANT RESERVATIONS, but the thing is sounding extraordinary promising.  I can say without any reservation whatsoever, it worth way, way more than the $110 + shipping I paid for it and everyone reading this thread that has suitable speakers should immediately purchase one to evaluate for themselves.  More to follow.