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Here's a little summary on Geddes and the Pioneer from another forum:.......
btw, this thread is almost two years old . . . . .
The only comparison I could find in these threads between the Pioneer receiver and anything else was to a Sanyo receiver which measured poorly by his metrics and Dr. Geddes referred to as unlistenable. Hardly definitive.
Threads such as these can be misleading, to say the least.
Threads such as these can be misleading, to say the least. It's impossible to quantify amp usage without taking a serious look at the target speakers. For example, my second system speakers are Source Technologies 277SE, which are a easy load on an amp, and they sound very good with all sort of amplification, from a simple Luxman R114 receiver, up to a Threshold SA3. There is a noticeable difference between the two on the speakers, but it's not as major as one would expect.However, hook up a Sony ES, Pioneer Elite, Luxman to my primary speakers (Legacy Signature III's), and this is MUCH different story. The receivers fall FAR short of delivering good sound compared to my Threshold S300 or SA3. The Legacy speakers are capable of delivering a very lifelike listening experience, but they NEED clean power, and NO receiver can deliver the proper voltage and current cleanly to these in anywhere near the same manner as the Thresholds.
I think the solution is actually simple - just spend about double the absolute most you think you can afford. It will hurt at first, but very soon (after break in) you will be in heaven and hearing your system sound the best it has ever sounded, and encouraging others to buy the same to reinforce your decision.Double blind listening comparisons are just a waste of time. You get what you pay for and never get what you don't pay for.Oh, and make sure the faceplate is at least 1/4" thick.
Yup - and a couple years ago it got a little heated...so let's keep v2 / The Sequel of this topic nice and respectful, please.I use a Pioneer receiver as my centerpiece in my system - an Elite SX-A9-J. It is a phenominal pre-amp, a passable tuner (integrated remote tuner is nice despite the so-so quality), but the amp section is a major letdown. So, I use only for preamp/tuner duties - at $600 it's an astonishingly deal. But, not every Pioneer receiver is the same and since Pioneer reorganized a couple years ago at the height of the financial mess after losing a couple $billion, I'm not sure they're putting in the efforts in R & D to make truly great gear at reasonable prices anymore....they have to do things to shore up their tattered balance sheet. http://www.twice.com/article/254288-Pioneer_Exits_TV_Business_As_Losses_Mount.phpThx, John / co-Fac The Critic's Circle
Pioneer's struggle don't necessarily have to indicate poor R&D. Because of the low weight and great sound quality...keeping designs like these coming likely makes a lot of sense and makes up for the R&D costs.To the comment by Freo-1, an amp is only as good as the speakers it is paired with, true. But poorly designed speakers sounding good with certain amps doesn't necessarily have to indicate better quality from those amps. The speakers Earl Geddes designs sound very good with these Pioneer units. They're highly efficient and present an easy load for an amp. IMHO, they are well designed speakers. Because of their efficiency, the Class A/B amp is normally using class A output from the chip, I believe. This would not be the case with less efficient designs and thus they would sound quite different.
I've been repeating this over & over & here it is again:The 912 is rated only for 8 Ohm loads. The farther below 8 Ohms is the load the worse will sound the 912. Comparing the 912 on a difficult load to any amp w/ four or five times the current capability is purely misleading for the purpose of this thread.The 912 is a 100W amp rated at 8 Ohms ONLY. Check the speaker load. The farther it strays from 8 Ohms flat the worse will sound the 912. In fact, it's not rated to drive less than 8 Ohms.
I take (a minor) issue with the poorly designed speaker comment. For example, the Legacy Signature III's are a very well designed speaker, BUT, it's a complex speaker, with a complex crossover network. The speaker is 93db @ 1 watt with a nominal 4 ohm load. However, as we all know, the speaker impedance varies widely based on the input signal. The Legacy has 3 10 inch woofer drivers, and are only 2db down at 20 Hz. (takeaway, no subwoofer required). Whenever a speaker has multiple drivers like this, the amp needs to have strong power supply that does not thermal out when the load demands it. The speaker is designed to provide life like reproduction of the full audio spectrum at realistic sound pressure levels. Very few speakers are designed to attempt this. So, the fact that a speaker demands a high voltage high current amp at low impedance does not necessarily mean it's a poor design. Most speaker manufactures make design compromises in order to get the most out of them for a given response/power combination. If a speaker like a Legacy is designed to obtain a full frequency response at realistic spl levels, it stands to reason that the source electronics would need to be equal to the task to meet the design requirements of the speaker.
We have to remember these are specific models with specific design so any other receiver/chipamp comparison even within Pioneer's own lineup isn't going to tell us anything...
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