$200 rcvr beats $11k separates

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James Romeyn

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #20 on: 17 Jun 2009, 05:32 pm »
Mike
At really high SPL I do notice a degradation in sound quality.  The speakers probably handle safely about 100Wrms.  The now gone SA50 might have played a bit louder but that's of no benefit when 97% of the other time (normal or lower SPL) the 912 sounds so superior. 

What do you think is the 912s power output at 4-Ohms?  Just curious.  Also, my coming speakers will be 16 Ohm but they will be bipolar meaning about +3 dB sensitivity & double the power handling.  What is the 912s estimate max output into 16 Ohms? 

Thanks for your notes.

Mike B.

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #21 on: 17 Jun 2009, 05:43 pm »
I am not surprised at this. I bought a new Harmon Kardon two channel receiver for my bedroom a couple years ago. It is mainly used for FM and drives my old primary speakers which are many times more expensive. I find it very detailed and musical. And, it has a full function remote allowing me to say horizontal  :thumb:

IronLion

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #22 on: 17 Jun 2009, 07:23 pm »
I have one of the d912k's, bought it a while back while I was still in school.  I now have a Spectron MIII MKII SE.  I like the Spectron better in all areas when it replaced my Red Wine amps, I also tried the d912k for kicks to see if it lived up to Gedde's thoughts on it, I thought it sounded fine but the Spectron was noticeably more transparent, especially in the highs.  I'll do another back to back comparison when I have time, the d912k is currently in my HT setup.

rajacat

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #23 on: 17 Jun 2009, 08:12 pm »
Hmm... I have a VSX-D498 that I purchased at Costco  :green: about 10 years ago. When I have some time I'll hook it up into my main system and evaluate. It's powering my office system now. Anybody else have one?

-Roy


James Romeyn

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #24 on: 17 Jun 2009, 08:28 pm »
I have one of the d912k's, bought it a while back while I was still in school.  I now have a Spectron MIII MKII SE.  I like the Spectron better in all areas when it replaced my Red Wine amps, I also tried the d912k for kicks to see if it lived up to Gedde's thoughts on it, I thought it sounded fine but the Spectron was noticeably more transparent, especially in the highs.  I'll do another back to back comparison when I have time, the d912k is currently in my HT setup.

I've been repeating this over & over & here it is again:

The 912 is rated only for 8 Ohm loads.  The farther below 8 Ohms is the load the worse will sound the 912. 

Comparing the 912 on a difficult load to any amp w/ four or five times the current capability is purely misleading for the purpose of this thread.

The 912 is a 100W amp rated at 8 Ohms ONLY.  Check the speaker load.  The farther it strays from 8 Ohms flat the worse will sound the 912.  In fact, it's not rated to drive less than 8 Ohms. 

I suppose the speaker must be quite an easy load for the 912 to work as a power amp/integrated.  For systems w/ too-difficult a speaker load, the only known use for the 912 would be as a preamp.  BUT THERE IS ONLY A SUM TOTAL ONE PURE ANALOG INPUT, BEING LABELED "DVD 7.1" requiring an external switchbox for multiple analog inputs.  One can easily imagine that no one would ever consider using the 912 as a high end preamp in a well thought out system above average in cost.  It doesn't fit in cosmetics or gestalt in any way.  Yet, it would apparently make a great performing preamp as long as the amp was no more difficult a load vs. the SA-50 mk3.  It might even work well as a preamp driving a more difficult load, but that's the only amp I drove w/ it, so it's the only one I can speak to.  I doubt the manual quotes the output impedance of the pre outs.   

If you wanted to use the 912 as a pre driving a difficult amp load, I'd suggest at least trying it.  If the pre outs didn't sound right, I'd try driving the external power amp w/ the speaker outs of the 912 through a 9k series resistor then a 1k parallel resistor (1/8 w OK) at the input to the external power amp.

     

jhm731

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #25 on: 17 Jun 2009, 08:35 pm »
owner and service manuals can be found at:

http://www.hifiengine.com/

Looks like the PAC011A amplifier modules are also used in these models:

Pioneer VSX-D209
Pioneer VSX-D409
Pioneer VSX-D414
Pioneer VSX-D509
Pioneer VSX-D510
Pioneer VSX-D511
Pioneer VSX-D514
Pioneer VSX-D710
Pioneer VSX-D712
Pioneer VSX-D714
Pioneer VSX-D810
Pioneer VSX-D811
Pioneer VSX-D812
Pioneer VSX-D814
Pioneer VSX-D912


« Last Edit: 17 Jun 2009, 09:49 pm by jhm731 »

IronLion

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #26 on: 17 Jun 2009, 08:53 pm »
I have one of the d912k's, bought it a while back while I was still in school.  I now have a Spectron MIII MKII SE.  I like the Spectron better in all areas when it replaced my Red Wine amps, I also tried the d912k for kicks to see if it lived up to Gedde's thoughts on it, I thought it sounded fine but the Spectron was noticeably more transparent, especially in the highs.  I'll do another back to back comparison when I have time, the d912k is currently in my HT setup.

I've been repeating this over & over & here it is again:

The 912 is rated only for 8 Ohm loads.  The farther below 8 Ohms is the load the worse will sound the 912. 

Comparing the 912 on a difficult load to any amp w/ four or five times the current capability is purely misleading for the purpose of this thread.

The 912 is a 100W amp rated at 8 Ohms ONLY.  Check the speaker load.  The farther it strays from 8 Ohms flat the worse will sound the 912.  In fact, it's not rated to drive less than 8 Ohms. 

I suppose the speaker must be quite an easy load for the 912 to work as a power amp/integrated.  For systems w/ too-difficult a speaker load, the only known use for the 912 would be as a preamp.  BUT THERE IS ONLY A SUM TOTAL ONE PURE ANALOG INPUT, BEING LABELED "DVD 7.1" requiring an external switchbox for multiple analog inputs.  One can easily imagine that no one would ever consider using the 912 as a high end preamp in a well thought out system above average in cost.  It doesn't fit in cosmetics or gestalt in any way.  Yet, it would apparently make a great performing preamp as long as the amp was no more difficult a load vs. the SA-50 mk3.  It might even work well as a preamp driving a more difficult load, but that's the only amp I drove w/ it, so it's the only one I can speak to.  I doubt the manual quotes the output impedance of the pre outs.   

If you wanted to use the 912 as a pre driving a difficult amp load, I'd suggest at least trying it.  If the pre outs didn't sound right, I'd try driving the external power amp w/ the speaker outs of the 912 through a 9k series resistor then a 1k parallel resistor (1/8 w OK) at the input to the external power amp.

     

Sorry, didn't mean to throw a monkey wrench into your sensationalist-titled thread, just thought I'd chime in as I tried it with my speakers.  I would like to try my 912k out with some more efficient speakers, mine probably aren't the best pairing for it. 

mgalusha

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #27 on: 17 Jun 2009, 09:50 pm »
What do you think is the 912s power output at 4-Ohms?  Just curious.  Also, my coming speakers will be 16 Ohm but they will be bipolar meaning about +3 dB sensitivity & double the power handling.  What is the 912s estimate max output into 16 Ohms? 

If the chips could handle the thermal load and the power supply was stout enough it would double in a 4R load but since Pioneer doesn't rate it for this, or even 6 ohms as is common in much HT gear it almost certainly won't do that and may not produce any more power into 4R that into 8, it very much depends on the power supply and heat sinking. Heat dissipation is a problem as Pioneer has three amplifiers in each chip, very hard to get rid of the heat.

It will likely fare better into a 16 ohm load but for the same voltage at 16R 50Watts will be available. It might do a little better depending on how close the amp can swing to the rail voltage, which is +/- 37.5V.

Those are into straight resistive loads, it will no doubt be very different driving a loudspeaker. The service manual shows it's rated using the DIN method to produce 100W at 1KHz at 1% THD into a 8R resistive load.

James Romeyn

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #28 on: 17 Jun 2009, 11:40 pm »
Mike
There is a small internal fan; no idea if it has ever turned on; seating is almost 20' from the 912.  I would imagine the one time the 912 shut down from being overdriven the fan was likely activated but again, I wouldn't know.   

How would distortion components change if at all, switching from an 8R load to 16R? 

How much if anything could be tweaked that might improve audible performance in a custom version of the power amp circuit?  I'm guessing not much but your input is valued here.  Could current rating be increased or is the chip internally limited to 8 Ohms?  Based on emails w/ Earl & someone else (can't remember) I'm guessing it's internally limited to 8 Ohms. 

 

TheChairGuy

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #29 on: 18 Jun 2009, 01:16 am »
Pioneer is making some cream puff stuff for wee coin these days :thumb:

I have a the (dual mono right back to the custom toroids) Pioneer SX-A9-J receiver.  It handles all preamp and tuner duties for me.

I've actually never tried the amp outputs - generally preferring tubes for the last push to the speakers (so my Dukane monoblocks are tied to the preamp out jacks conveniently supplied by Pioneer). 

It's got friggin' full feature remote (with tuner) and 'direct' path switch that keeps all the processing out of the transmission loop.

$600 as 'B' stock and you've got a helluva' hi-fi centerpiece for poco pesos :wink:

brj

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #30 on: 18 Jun 2009, 03:49 am »
Lest the thread degenerate further...

Differing viewpoints and even disagreements in the Critic's Circle are expected up to a point, but please keep your posts respectful and constructive.  More signal, less noise.  If it gets personal, it gets trashed.

Thank you,

Critic's Circle co-facilitator

JP78

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #31 on: 18 Jun 2009, 05:58 am »
in the spirit of constructive criticism:

Maybe you should be specific about your complaint.  What's extroardinary?  That two amps are of similar design schematic?  If so, are you serious? 

well, what's extraordinary here is that you're the one making the claim without providing specifics. you're citing a source that you claim to be reputable, but we have no name to this reputable source. how can the reader decide if the source is reputable without being able to do their own research on the source? secondly, you're claiming designs are similar, but we don't have any scope of design. specifically what are the checkpoints make these designs is similar? at the most basic level, all amplifiers have a power supply and a gain stage, and are therefore similar in design.  perhaps i misread, and i'm going to apologize if that is the case, but you've presented us with an unknown source citing unknown design similarities.

and please don't take the nonsense about the audiophile community personally. i just get tired of reading advertisements, audio asylum posts, and tweakers responses always something to the effect 'well my concert pianist acquaintance who is an emt doctor and an audio engineer came over to listen to my home brew speaker cables made out of horse hair and said they redefined the speaker cable paradigm'. perhaps a bit of the tongue-and-cheek spirit of my response isn't coming through well with words. apologies for that.

let's turn this into a more technical discussion and something constructive...i'm all for it.  please answer the above questions in more detail and let's carry on from there.

best,

cloudbaseracer

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #32 on: 18 Mar 2011, 09:53 pm »
owner and service manuals can be found at:

http://www.hifiengine.com/

Looks like the PAC011A amplifier modules are also used in these models:

Pioneer VSX-D209
Pioneer VSX-D409
Pioneer VSX-D414
Pioneer VSX-D509
Pioneer VSX-D510
Pioneer VSX-D511
Pioneer VSX-D514
Pioneer VSX-D710
Pioneer VSX-D712
Pioneer VSX-D714
Pioneer VSX-D810
Pioneer VSX-D811
Pioneer VSX-D812
Pioneer VSX-D814
Pioneer VSX-D912

I believe Earl Geddes is now using the Pioneer 919.  He very well may have switched from the 912 but I am not sure why.

Anyone talked to Earl about this recently and have any input?

Anyone know of the differences between the 912 and the 919?

Thanks,

James

wushuliu

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #33 on: 13 Apr 2011, 06:02 pm »
I'd be curious to know more as well. Not a lot of feedback on these amps audio-wise.

jtwrace

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #34 on: 13 Apr 2011, 06:05 pm »
I've also been thinking of buying a Dr. Geddes type receiver to try.  I"m very curious!

What would I do with all that money though.....????   :scratch:

Stress free and inexpensive to operate.  No power conditioner.   :scratch:

wushuliu

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #35 on: 13 Apr 2011, 06:19 pm »
Dude, like jello, there's ALWAYS room for a power conditioner...

wushuliu

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #36 on: 13 Apr 2011, 06:22 pm »
I've also been thinking of buying a Dr. Geddes type receiver to try.  I"m very curious!

What would I do with all that money though.....????   :scratch:

Stress free and inexpensive to operate.  No power conditioner.   :scratch:

There's one on ebay. I'm sure you could sell it and recover most of the dough (hint hint)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-VSX-919H-K-7-Channel-A-V-Receiver-Black-/110666795953?pt=Receivers_Tuners&hash=item19c4414bb1

silverfi

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #37 on: 14 Apr 2011, 02:15 pm »
a reasonable opinion. i need to audition and compare the said items. otherwise it sounds like a fairy tale.

viggen

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #38 on: 14 Apr 2011, 02:52 pm »
47 Labs' Junji Kimura did work for Pioneer before starting his own company.  Just connecting the dots here.

If the Pioneer is really anything like the gaincard, you need rather efficient speakers with stable impedance load.  I had very good luck with a pair of JMR Twin MK2 which are very stable 4 ohm speakers..

fredgarvin

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #39 on: 14 Apr 2011, 04:16 pm »
I find it a little odd that on this site, of all sites,  someone wouldn't realize that more expensive doesn't always equal better. Maybe on a brick and mortar place like Audioasylum. Here, we specialize in bang for the buck, and always have.