$200 rcvr beats $11k separates

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wilsynet

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #140 on: 6 May 2011, 09:33 pm »
I agree that the VSX-1019AH does detail very well while not sounding clinical.  I too would rate the 1019AH to be a bit better than the Ampino.

Yup, it is ever so slightly edgy, and unfortunately, that ever so small slice of harshness is fatiguing for me.  It's my overly picky ears I admit it.  So while it does some things better than my tube amplifiers (bass control is one of them), I wouldn't be able to have prolonged listening sessions with the 1019AH.

I suspect that for more robust ears, the 1019AH will be an excellent value amplifier that may very well replace separates.

I could not say if the 1019AH has the PAC011A amplifier modules.  Is it obvious if I take the thing apart?  If so, I may do that if I'm able to find the time over the next couple of weeks.

wushuliu

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #141 on: 6 May 2011, 09:50 pm »
I agree that the VSX-1019AH does detail very well while not sounding clinical.  I too would rate the 1019AH to be a bit better than the Ampino.

Yup, it is ever so slightly edgy, and unfortunately, that ever so small slice of harshness is fatiguing for me.  It's my overly picky ears I admit it.  So while it does some things better than my tube amplifiers (bass control is one of them), I wouldn't be able to have prolonged listening sessions with the 1019AH.

I suspect that for more robust ears, the 1019AH will be an excellent value amplifier that may very well replace separates.

I could not say if the 1019AH has the PAC011A amplifier modules.  Is it obvious if I take the thing apart?  If so, I may do that if I'm able to find the time over the next couple of weeks.

No, it doesn't have the PA chips, hence letitroll's question regarding soundquality between both models. The sound reminds me of the Tripath amps I tried out some time ago.

Letitroll98

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #142 on: 6 May 2011, 11:18 pm »
Thanks for the link wushuliu, and not to be a jerk about it, but you have given more info in the last couple of posts than Earl gives about the 1019.  He said "I have it" and "it sounds the same", that's it.  Nothing like the fairly in-depth test he did with the earlier model.  I trust your knowledge that the 1019 et al don't have the PAC011A chip that's in the 912.  However both of your descriptions (wushuliu and wilsynet, now there's a pair of nics) pretty much match my experience.  And early on in that experience I had a lot of the HF listener fatigue you both have noted, hence my caveats about waiting for judgement earlier in the thread.  That has settled down a great deal, I thought it was my expert application of tweaks, more likely it was just breaking in more.  Now I can listen for hours, fell asleep this afternoon in front of the stereo system (after several martinis). 

I was going to bust on wilsynet for posting his description so soon, but thought it unseemly as he's been very sincere and gentlemanly.  So I'd just ask respectfully that he might think about letting his 1019 cook for a while and listen again.  However I don't expect him to see a major transformation, the amp stays pretty much the same with just the HF excess that caused me to tense up after 20 minutes going away.   

TheChairGuy

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #143 on: 7 May 2011, 01:56 am »
As i read Letitrolls commentary on this newish Pioneer receiver...I harken back to my positive experiences 7 years ago with the then new JVC RX-ES1 and RX-F10 digital/hybrid receivers.

In most ways i preferred them to all solid state premp and amp combos adding up to over $3K.....so a bit of a giant killer it was in respect to solid state gear.

But like wilysnet mentioned, as i began to hear and understand tube gear a few years ago it started to pale next to tubes.  In the end - a few months after this 5 page topic linked - i ended up tossing the receiver (and all my SS gear) and have listened to nothing else but tube amps since.

But the JVC's were, overall, preferred to SS gear costing several multiples more...but couldnt hang with tube gear in the end.

Btw, the JVC's benefitted from having some power conditioning on - likely working like a wastegate for digi garbage the JVC brewed so that it didn't spew itself back into the sonic chain.

Also, using the receiver amps paired with a tube preamp (with phono, of course) was a very delectible sound to me.  Quite a few vinyl session goose bumps were had this way i remember from back in 2004  8)

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=14535.0

wushuliu

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #144 on: 7 May 2011, 02:02 am »
FYI: It occurred to me today that since mine was reconditioned that I should set it to factory defaults. I don't know if either of you (LIR or Wils)  have done this but now I get what sounds like a real flat response. Even the coax in and multichannel in sound more or less the same. Auto Surround, Direct, and Pure Direct also sound similar though Pure has the edge. Also the multichannel in is not completely DSP free (on the 1019 anyway). If you cycle through the MCACC memory settings you'll hear that those are still being processed. Setting to factory default clears everything and now all those settings sound the same, so i presume this is the 'naked' sound of the receiver.

Goes w/o saying be sure to check the speaker settings using setup after this, etc.

Reset settings are in the manual.

Tyson

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #145 on: 7 May 2011, 02:07 am »
Some bybee filters would do a lot to clean up the bit of hotness you hear.

wushuliu

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #146 on: 7 May 2011, 02:13 am »
Some bybee filters would do a lot to clean up the bit of hotness you hear.

I'd do fuse swap and Felix first before hitting a bybee...

Tyson

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #147 on: 7 May 2011, 03:02 am »
I have a Felix with Bybees and it's a great upgrade, no doubt.  But bybees seem to be particularly helpful in these hybrid type receivers.  Do the fuse swap AND the bybees!

Letitroll98

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #148 on: 7 May 2011, 07:00 am »
Thousands of dollars of tweaks seems a bit counter intuitive for a $110 receiver.  I did try my DIY ground control pigtails and it deadened the sound too much.  Others may have different results.

Tyson

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #149 on: 7 May 2011, 07:28 am »
Bybees are hardly thousand dollar tweaks.  I'm just saying that when people start to find these receivers a bit fatiguing (and they will), a pair of strategically placed bybees can really help tone that down, while still keeping all the speed and low level clarity that is enamoring.

wushuliu

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #150 on: 7 May 2011, 08:15 am »
I have a Felix with Bybees and it's a great upgrade, no doubt.  But bybees seem to be particularly helpful in these hybrid type receivers.  Do the fuse swap AND the bybees!

Just to be OT for a split second: do you mean you use the bybees IN the felix?

Tyson

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #151 on: 7 May 2011, 05:02 pm »
Bybees in, and also in the power supply.

cloudbaseracer

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #152 on: 7 May 2011, 09:48 pm »
Bybees are hardly thousand dollar tweaks.  I'm just saying that when people start to find these receivers a bit fatiguing (and they will), a pair of strategically placed bybees can really help tone that down, while still keeping all the speed and low level clarity that is enamoring.

Are you saying that Bybees are not thousands of dollars?  The ones I have priced on A'gon seem to be $2-$5k.


wushuliu

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #153 on: 7 May 2011, 10:06 pm »
No. They are only a hundred or so for DIY.

gedlee

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #154 on: 8 May 2011, 12:46 am »
I was asked to come here, but after reading the posts there is not much that I can say.  I currently use a 919 and I do find the sound quality to be indistinguishable from the 912 that I had before and that I did some extensive measurements on.  I have not measured the 919.  That said, I have long disbelived in the cult of amplifiers as to their being notable differences in all amplifiers.  I have seen some poorly designed amplifiers that were audible and of course all tube amps will sound different, but as to there being any real differences in "good" solid state amps, well, I am sorry, I just don't accept that. Further, it has never been shown in a scientific study to be the case while it has been shown, on numerous occasions, that people will claim to hear a difference when in fact no difference exists (they were actually the same amp.)  It does make one wonder.

Tyson

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #155 on: 8 May 2011, 01:21 am »
How do you define a "good" SS amp?

srb

Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #156 on: 8 May 2011, 01:56 am »
So a linear power supply that has a larger transformer and more filter capacitance in an effort to maintain a low-ripple DC power reserve has absolutely no effect on the amplifier circuit and resulting sound?
 
Interesting.
 
Steve

kevinh

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #157 on: 8 May 2011, 01:59 am »
A good solid state amp (or any good amp regardless of the devices used) will exhibit little to no zero crossover distortion the distortion will be predominately low order harmonics and will decrease in a linear manner as the volume is lowered (ie higher order harmonics will no increase relative to low order distortion as the volume changes).

kevinh

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #158 on: 8 May 2011, 02:09 am »
So a linear power supply that has a larger transformer and more filter capacitance in an effort to maintain a low-ripple DC power reserve has absolutely no effect on the amplifier circuit and resulting sound?
 
Interesting.
 
Steve



Lynn Olsen has maintained that ir could make the situation worse. Ideally the entire amp would have each stage regulated.

See the links:

http://nutshellhifi.com/library/ETF2.html

http://nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html

What I find interesting is that Earl and Olsen identify the same type of distortion spectra to be the best for good sound. There can be advantages to putting the amp on a single die.

It would be interesting to see how Pioneer designs the supply. A regulator chip might be cheaper than and PS with a lot of caps???

wushuliu

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Re: $200 rcvr beats $11k separates
« Reply #159 on: 8 May 2011, 02:11 am »
I was asked to come here, but after reading the posts there is not much that I can say.  I currently use a 919 and I do find the sound quality to be indistinguishable from the 912 that I had before and that I did some extensive measurements on.  I have not measured the 919.  That said, I have long disbelived in the cult of amplifiers as to their being notable differences in all amplifiers.  I have seen some poorly designed amplifiers that were audible and of course all tube amps will sound different, but as to there being any real differences in "good" solid state amps, well, I am sorry, I just don't accept that. Further, it has never been shown in a scientific study to be the case while it has been shown, on numerous occasions, that people will claim to hear a difference when in fact no difference exists (they were actually the same amp.)  It does make one wonder.

Thanks for stopping in. I know this isn't your cup of tea so your willingness to clarify and so respectfully I might add is much appreciated.