[lilac_wine]

I have read a number of threads comparing dacs and have narrowed (I think) my options:
Ack dAck!
Perpetual technologies p3a

My current system is a Marantz 67se feeding a Creek 5350se and Meadowlark kestrel speakers.  I also have a Basis 1400 with a Clearaudio Beta.

I am looking for a more refined smoother sound from a digital source.  Imaging is very important.

How does the stock P3A compare to the dack?  If I got the P3A I would not be able to get it modded for awhile.  But that would be an option for the future.
   
Which one images better and sounds more analog like?

Thanks.

[Rocket]

Hi,

I can't comment on the differences between these 2 dacs.  However, i did have a perpetual technologies p3a dac in stock form for about a year.  Compared to a stock cdp or dvd it is very good and sounds great.

In my system i had a modified pioneer pds-507 with a g&d clock installed, damping mods and iec outlet for different cable choice.  the p3a was only slightly better than my modded cdp.

Last year i was lucky enough to buy a modified p3a level 1 dac (modwright) and basically the improvement over the stock one is astonishing.

That said, the ack dac! has been getting great reviews (i haven't heard it and not likely to as i live outside the US), from what i have read the ack dack! would be better than a stock p3a.

do you have the opportunity to listen to them?

regards

rocket

[Hantra]

Haven't heard it, but of the two, I'd get the P3A.

[vpolineni]

I disagree with hantra... I've owned both within the last month and for me, the ack dack was far superior to the stock p3a... i'm sure any version of the modded p3a (whether modwright or empirical audio) is killer but when comparing the stock p3a to the dack, I felt that the dack beat it in every aspect.

[jackman]

I'm with vpolineni on this one.  I have listened to both and feel the dAck! is far superior to a stock P3A.  A modded P3A is another story, however we are talking big bucks.  Jerry's modded P3A sounded VERY good.  

J

[BeeBop]

Did those of you who prefer the dAck use it with a jitter reduction unit like the Monarchy DIP or straight out of the box?

[doug s.]

i would go w/neither; i'd go w/the art di/o.  how can i say this, as i've never heard either?  easy - everyone who has heard the di/o against the ack or the s-n toob dack, sez the di/o is more dynamic, detailed, etc, tho perhaps not as smooth, regardless of which dac they ultimately prefer.  in this case, if yure using kestrals as speakers, & have no intention of replacing them anytime soon, i'd go for the synergy of a dac that emphasizes dynamics & detail.  i've heard the hot-rod kestrals, & i certainly tink they are a really nice speaker, but they give up detail & dynamics awreddy, imo, in favor of smoothness...

ymmv,

doug s.

[Hantra]

I disagree with hantra... I've owned both within the last month and for me, the ack dack was far superior to the stock p3a... i'm sure any version of the modded p3a (whether modwright or empirical audio) is killer but when comparing the stock p3a to the dack, I felt that the dack beat it in every aspect.

If the dAck beats the P3A, then I'd vote none of the above.  

everyone who has heard the di/o against the ack or the s-n toob dack, sez the di/o is more dynamic, detailed, etc, tho perhaps not as smooth, regardless of which dac they ultimately prefer.

This is true.  But if all you want are dynamics, and detail, you can get that from an MP3 player.    It at least would sound more like music than a DI/O.

[vpolineni]

Beebop, I was using it straight out of the box.  
the only di/o i've heard is jackman's modded one by bolder cables.  from what i understand, it is right below a mensa and I like the dack more fwiw... lilac_wine, the dack is definetly more analog sounding... let me know if you want to hear it sometime..

[doug s.]

This is true.  But if all you want are dynamics, and detail, you can get that from an MP3 player.    It at least would sound more like music than a DI/O.

which is why, ultimately, ya need to audition yerself.  i know, (ime), the di/o is as musical as highly respected digital playback, such as the resolution audio cdp's, and the electrocompaniet dacs.  quite a bit less expensive, too.  and, i know others feel this way as well.  

but, others, such as hantra, obviously do not.  if hantra isn't using hyperbole here, in stating that mp3 is more musical than the di/o, even if the di/o isn't his cuppa, then i know i can safely disregard anyting he offers in the way of equpment suggestions, as he's obviously deaf!     of course, i believe he *is* using hyperbole here...

in this specific case, i tink dynamics & detail are needed, as the meadowlark kestrals are weak in these areas, imo...

ymmv,

doug s., w/extremely musical sounds emenating from my self-modded art di/o...

[BeeBop]

Thanks to all for a VERY informative and dignified debate. Would anybody care to post links to the devices they are discussing?

Thanks again.

[Rocket]

Hi BeeBop,

To be honest (hopefully no one from av123 will read this) i wouldn't bother buying a pt p3a in stock form.  your $$$ can be spent elsewhere and you can a cheaper product which sounds better.

I was lucky to buy a fully pt p3a modwright level 1 and monolithic power supply for $650us.

Wayne at The Bolder Cable has a demo pack of goodies, which includes a mensa dac, you could contact him.

i would check out the following:

pt p3a (modwright) second hand only
scott nixon dac
ack dack!
mensa dio dac
bel canto dac 1 second hand

you should really listen to them in house if you can.

regards

rod

[BeeBop]

I've already bought the P3-A. I've got other things to spend my money on and I'm moving on.

[lilac_wine]

Thanks for all of the great feedback.  I do tend to agree that the meadowlarks are laid back speakers.  I used to have B&Ws and these certainly have a different character.

If I decided to get a P3A it will have to be used.  If I can get one used with mods for relatively close to the price of the dack, I will get it with mods.  One of the main plusses to the P3A is the availability of upgrades.  I would have a decent dac now (better than my marantz) and will be able to upgrade it to a great dac over the next year or two.

I would really like to hear these products in my system.  I can probably get the dack to try in my system.  Since I would have to get the other products used, I do not want to burden dealers with a home trial.  

Empirical does offer a trial of a fully modded P3A.  It would be interesting to hear, but it will probably be a year or two before I am ready to have one fully upgraded.

I may keep an eye on audiogon for awhile and see if any moded P3As come up at a good price.

[Hantra]

I do tend to agree that the meadowlarks are laid back speakers.

I really like Meadowlarks.  I've listened to the Shearwater extensively, and it's a great speaker.  I almost bought them myself. .

OTOH, some people HATE Meadowlarks.  So. . .    

B

[lilac_wine]

The Kestrel HR image extremely well.  I am definately not looking to upgrade speakers right now.  My B&Ws had a great mid-range, but it always sounded like the music was coming from the speakers.  The kestrels at times dissapear.

I am sure that some people dislike Meadowlarks.  They do have their own sound and are laid-back.  I tend to find them very musical though.

I am living in an apartment right now, so I do not have a dedicated listening room.  I may be moving into a house in the next month or two where I can sit up a dedicated room.  I expect this to be the biggest upgrade yet for the system.

For now I think I will keep my open for a used, preferably modded P3A.  Once I get it I may try to get a dack demo and compare them.  I can always return the dack or resell the P3A without losing much.

[doug s.]

I do tend to agree that the meadowlarks are laid back speakers.

I really like Meadowlarks.  I've listened to the Shearwater extensively, and it's a great speaker.  I almost bought them myself. .

OTOH, some people HATE Meadowlarks.  So. . .    

B

i've never heard the higher-end meadowlarks.  the kestrel hot-rod is a fantastic full-range speaker at its price-point, imo - especially if ya shop used.  its sins are sins of omission, imo.  ya gotta spend more, or sacrifice the full-range sound, to get the added detail & dynamics.   that said, i'd try for a synergistic match w/my other gear, & go for detail, which is needed.  the kestrels are awreddy way-smooth...

ymmv,

doug s.

btw, lilac - i tink yure right - ya will find, after yer move, that the room is the single most important piece of audio equipment!  

[Hantra]

its sins are sins of omission, imo.

Man, that sums up this whole game.  Everything you buy will omit something.  Nothing does it all.  Sacrificing something for things one HAS to have is really the best one can hope for. . . .

[doug s.]

its sins are sins of omission, imo.

Man, that sums up this whole game.  Everything you buy will omit something.  Nothing does it all.  Sacrificing something for things one HAS to have is really the best one can hope for. . . .

that may sum it all up, for *nice* gear.  but, lotsa gear *commits* sin - that is, they do stuff that ya may find offensive.  ie: bloated bass, aggressive irritating treble, bland, diffuse imaging,  etc...  kestrels don't have any of these issues, imo...

doug s.