Alternative to Omega 5

Docere · « **Reply #20 on:** 21 May 2009, 04:34 am »

Are you running a pre-amp? If yes, you may want to consider building/adding an inexpensive passive line level cross-over (PLLXO) between the pre-amp and power-amp, then tuning in the subs at a higher frequency. I'd be shooting for roll-off of -3dB at 80hz (if one sub); experiment with higher roll-off (e.g. -3dB 120hz) if you have stereo subs. This will reduce the lower frequencies being reproduced by your Bottlehead amp and speakers, thereby reducing the demands on them.

A few caveats:

Subs need to be able to get up to around the roll-off point cleanly

You may need to be able to solder (or have a friend who can)

You will need to decide on a 1st or 2nd order roll-off

Orchestral music has significant energy up to ~ 400hz, so this may not be a solution for you.

Most FR driver based systems benefit from a PLLXO. I will be DIYing my system and will almost certainly be incorporting one...

Cheers
Raymond

Capt. Z · « **Reply #21 on:** 21 May 2009, 12:02 pm »

Hi Reymond;

I do not have a pre amp. I do however have 2 ACI passive subs powered by an Adcom 555, controlled by a Paradigm x30 Bass x-over, which allows me to set roll off frequ., level and phase for one sub. I had tried using the sub rolling of around 100 or 120 Hz. It did make a difference. However, it gets a little tricky with integration.

My main speakers are the ACI Sapphire III with the 2 ACI Subs and they can produce an orchestra pretty good. They do sound very well balanced. However, I never realized how rolled off the highs are with the ACI speakers until I got the Omegas. I sometimes run both speakers at the same time. That can sound really live-like sometimes, though I have to be carefull, since the mids can become a little to strong when both speakers run at the same time.

rajacat · « **Reply #22 on:** 21 May 2009, 03:00 pm »

Try passive high pass filters. http://www.audioc.com/library1/subaccess.htm

The filters will remove some of the load from the the 4-1/2" drivers so you will be able to play louder with less distortion.

I use these with my Omega Hemp Bipoles.

-Roy

Capt. Z · « **Reply #23 on:** 21 May 2009, 03:03 pm »

I thought about this, but since I don't have a pre-amp I am using the headphone out on the SEX amp. The Bottlehead SEX is an integrated amp and putting this filter before the SEX amp would cut out the bass for the subwoofer also.

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #24 on:** 21 May 2009, 03:49 pm »

Larger drivers do better with more complex and louder works. I've owned Compact Hemps (8" ferrite) and now Super 6 Monitors -- both with subs. Both have done well with everything I've thrown at them. But admittedly my musical preferences point to smaller works. Kent

chrisby · « **Reply #25 on:** 21 May 2009, 06:36 pm »

It's beginning to sound like you've already answered your own question:

i.e. even with allocation of additional existing or new components (i.e. power &/or subs), the BH S.E.X / Omega combo may simply not form the core of a system with which you'll be satisfied.

We've all been there - if you don't need a second system for a smaller room, etc., it could be time to recoup the expenses.

Capt. Z · « **Reply #26 on:** 21 May 2009, 06:47 pm »

Hi Chrisby;

I kinda answered my own question, but I was trying to see, what other options are out there.

I had bouth the Bottlehead as a second headphone amp, but than got itchy feet and thought I could get some high efficency speaker to go with the SEX.

Also that gave me a totally different sounding system than what I've been using the past 20 years.

So it's very interesting to have 2 totally different sounding system in one room. (Sorry, don't need a TV or a stereo in my bedroom)

The seller of the Omegas told me:
Both the hs horns and omegas are great speakers. The omegas are more accurate and have better bass. The hs horns if you corner load them produce a wonderfully huge sounstage.

rjbond3rd · « **Reply #27 on:** 21 May 2009, 07:07 pm »

The Bottlehead is a sweet little amp, and there's a lot of tweakability, e.g. tube-rolling the 6Sn7's. It has plenty of juice if you're using the right kind of horns.

Capt. Z · « **Reply #28 on:** 21 May 2009, 07:15 pm »

I got two different tubes for the Bottlehead, RCA and GE

Don't have horns, got Omega 5

Otherwise the SEX came with some boutique caps, stepped attenutor and low - high switch on the headphone out.

I installed a c4s board.

Docere · « **Reply #29 on:** 22 May 2009, 05:27 am »

Roy,

Those passive filters are nifty. Basically a PLLXO in a connector. I'd prefer to do my own PLLXO, but for those without the inclination they are potentially a nice solution.

Capt. Z and others,

If I have correctly interpreted you have said, it seems like a PLLXO would not work in your circumstances. If you wish to keep your current system configuration, I am guessing the speakers will need to be replaced.

Small drivers in BLH or larger in BLH, BR (or BVR), or sealed/aperiodic etc. may suit. I'm not a fan of most BR speakers, no matter how trick the cabinets are built; I have ended up converting every one I have owned to *aperiodic(ish). Add a high(ish) output impedance amp and an inability to PLLXO below the tuning freq. and I would suggest you keep away from the usual BR-type format. Of course, there are exceptions that may suit, others will differ, and it depends on your system context and listening preferences... Perhaps a reasonably efficient 6.5"+ driver in a sealed or aperiodic cab, supported by your current subs, would suit you?

Cheers
Raymond

* I have done this with a nameless little stand-mount, the Epos 14s, and the bass cab on my current Ambience ribbon hybrids. Sealed bass has been my favourite to date, though I would like to go the path of BLH one day (soon).

JLM · « **Reply #30 on:** 22 May 2009, 07:01 pm »

I'm a single driver fan and a Fostex fan. But most Fostex do sound "thin" in the midrange. And unravelling complex music is what single driver speakers are the worst at IMO. I agree that smaller drivers and amps run out of guts quickly and that there is no substitute I (in either case) for "horsepower". I'm also a huge fan of transmission line designs and not of bass reflex. Like Docere I've also had success with aperiodic cabinets.

Regarding The Horns, I've found them to be very placement fussy, with their bass and ultimate spl outputs greatly overstated (nearly opposite of what their fans declare). But with the right music and the right setting they can sound good.

An efficient, inexpensive design that has a fuller sound and goes to 40 Hz is Bob Brines' FT1600. It's available in a "flats" kit for $300 or assembled for $1100. Plans are $25. I've worked with Bob and he's the real deal.

planet10 · « **Reply #31 on:** 23 May 2009, 02:21 am »

Quote from: rajacat on 21 May 2009, 03:00 pm

Try passive high pass filters. http://www.audioc.com/library1/subaccess.htm

Better to roll your own. The XO on those will vary depending on the amps input impedance.

http://t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html

dave

Capt. Z · « **Reply #32 on:** 23 May 2009, 03:00 am »

This has been a pretty educating time for me.

I have leanred that the Omega 5 and other similar designs are not made to excel with all kinds of music, but only with certain kinds of music, in certain areas.

I guess I just always assumed that a speaker should always sound 'right' (whatever that is)

I've done some more experimenting with adding my subs to the Omegas and crossing the subs over at about 120 hz and it has been pretty good so far, though some more fine adjusting is needed.

Docere · « **Reply #33 on:** 23 May 2009, 04:44 am »

In time, you may also be able experiment with a high-pass filter between your amp and speakers. It would require some largish sized components (not many), and you don't get the amp benefit, but it will still take a load off your speakers. The benefits may outweigh the disadvantages. I think this was mentioned earlier, but thought I would put this in as a reminder.

Cheers
Raymond

rajacat · « **Reply #34 on:** 23 May 2009, 10:31 pm »

Quote from: Capt. Z on 23 May 2009, 03:00 am

This has been a pretty educating time for me.

I have leanred that the Omega 5 and other similar designs are not made to excel with all kinds of music, but only with certain kinds of music, in certain areas.

I guess I just always assumed that a speaker should always sound 'right' (whatever that is)

I've done some more experimenting with adding my subs to the Omegas and crossing the subs over at about 120 hz and it has been pretty good so far, though some more fine adjusting is needed.

I don't know if my Omega Hemp Bipoles are considered single drive speakers but they do a good job with most orchestral music and give a tactile feeling of air, texture and descent imaging. Great depth of soundstage to go with great speed. They are essentially two Super 5 monitors, back to back but sharing the same cabinet but with a bulkhead between the two drivers. The cabinet demensions are somewhat different. You can easily change the speaker wiring to use in dipole too. I prefer bipole in my room...better mid range.

I run them in 16 ohm with restored/updated Heathkit W5m ,KT66 monoblocks ~25W/ch. The power output is a good match for these speakers. AVA T7 preamp.

Hah!

A little late but... you could have bought these http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60883.0

and http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68017.0

I would wait until Louis releases the new Alnico 4/1/2" drivers then replace the Fostecs. For $1100 > $1400 you'd have some very nice speakers with excellent craftsmanship , WAF, sound quality they can do a good job with any type of music. aa

--Roy

Capt. Z · « **Reply #35 on:** 23 May 2009, 11:03 pm »

Mine actually came with the Hemp drivers.

Louis recently exhange my hemp drivers for new ones.

I would assume that the Alnico driver would sound similar to the Hemp driver - sound balance wise.

bprice2 · « **Reply #36 on:** 24 May 2009, 01:41 am »

Quote

Louis recently exhange my hemp drivers for new ones.

Please excuse me if you already mentioned this, but how long have you had the new drivers installed?

Capt. Z · « **Reply #37 on:** 24 May 2009, 02:13 am »

The hemps that came with the speakers had about 300 hours from the previouse owner on and propably another 75 hours by me.

The new exchanged drivers have a little over 100 hours on them.

Funny, when the exchanged drivers came in they sounded fuller and less extended, more to my liking. Now they sound almost identical to the previouse driver.

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #38 on:** 24 May 2009, 02:26 am »

Quote from: Capt. Z on 23 May 2009, 11:03 pm

Mine actually came with the Hemp drivers.

Louis recently exhange my hemp drivers for new ones.

I would assume that the Alnico driver would sound similar to the Hemp driver - sound balance wise.

The Alnico will probably be Hemp too. So not sure why you would assume it will sound similar. Have you asked Louis about his new alignment for the 5XRS. It involves a new port that Louis says does a lot for the overall SQ.

Capt. Z · « **Reply #39 on:** 24 May 2009, 02:57 am »

Got new drivers, new port and new cable from Louis. Did the 'easing' of the driver cut out myself.

Using same cone material would mean that the oevrall sound should be similar. The driver motor may add some improvement in speed and control. ( I assume)