[bacobits1]

Good question, the other is $850 new. I would rather have the SME lll on the older table. Again, it can be changed out to a better arm later if you choose. But that is just me. As to which would sound better I can't tell you that. The older Thorens when set properly have a great reputation too.

The Shure M97X is MM so no need for special pre's etc. Should be a pretty good starting point. Reasonably priced.
http://www.needledoctor.com/Shure-M97XE?sc=2&category=402

I think most of the new Thorens offerings are way over priced. The higher ones are grossly overpriced since they came back on the scene. At $3-9,000 I would look a lot of places elsewhere. Hence the older recommendation from me.

Don't forget the Technics 1200 series too, $475 (new). Amazon had them for $400 Just add a lifter and any of the upgrades later. 
Look at http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

Confused enough? Sorry.

Den

Some more goodies>Lots of goodies right now.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1248131795&/Empire-698

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?anlgtabl&1248106089
Buy a box from VPI, It says pickup only. They can be persuaded I'm sure.

[doug s.]

This is nice. Super condition too.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1246724941&/Thorens-160TB-with-sme-serie-i

Just look for an end of record lifter.
BTW, not my ad but I wouldn't mind having it.

D

I saw that, but I had no idea what it's quality was, where it fit in the scheme of things. I have been looking some, not very hard to be honest, for an 'arm lifter'. The one posted here before on Ebay has had the listing ended, the other was in England and I am not sure how comfortable I am dealing with overseas sales.

i would not have any problem buying something like this from an overseas wendor.  re: the lifter, that seller puts them on ebay one at a time.  he has another one now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130308051711

re; $700 for an old thorens, i would much prefer an empire at half the price, or less.  or even the same price, for that matter.  every once in a while, extremely mint empires do sell for $700 or so, but they are usually a lot less...

doug s.

[lumendog]

You have been given lots of advice and are probably confused by now.
As for the Technics, it is a great table, but unfortunately the lifters suggested will not work on it due to its oversized platter does not leave room between the tonearm and the platter to set it up ( I had a technics, and have an expressimo)
The vintage Thorens need speed control like the project speedbox to sound there best IMO. I have a TD 147 and it outperforms the Technics and has autolift with the addition of a 150 project speedbox. Note, that the speedbox will only work on the 16v Thorens.
A completely new monkey wrench into your search should be an older Harman Kardon such as the T60, T55, T50.
These are really great tables and have auto lift. I had one and have always regretted selling it, but I regret selling all of my tables. IN fact even though I currently have a Thorens for sale, I would look  for an HK. They are much less fussy setting up and there is an outboard motor mod that it not difficult to pull off. As long as their aesthetics work for you, you would have a great table.
I can not say anything about the empires as I have never owned one, but they sure look slick.

[ixlr8]

You have been given lots of advice and are probably confused by now.

Lots of good advice, not confused... just spending lots of time researching all the suggestions made.

As for the Technics, it is a great table, but unfortunately the lifters suggested will not work on it due to its oversized platter does not leave room between the tonearm and the platter to set it up ( I had a technics, and have an expressimo)

Thanks for the heads up on the Techinics, I have talked with Kevin @ KAB and I was going to get the 1200 with arm wire upgrade, remote PS, arm dampening and add an autolift. I guess this means one less option to explore for now. Even if I don't order a 1200 from him... I think I will get his record cleaner, some of our old records need some serious cleaning.

A completely new monkey wrench into your search should be an older Harman Kardon such as the T60, T55, T50.
These are really great tables and have auto lift. I had one and have always regretted selling it, but I regret selling all of my tables. IN fact even though I currently have a Thorens for sale, I would look  for an HK. They are much less fussy setting up and there is an outboard motor mod that it not difficult to pull off. As long as their aesthetics work for you, you would have a great table.

"Aesthetics don't matter.. sound does", so sayeth SWMBO. She is also the one with the better ears to hear the difference.

I can not say anything about the empires as I have never owned one, but they sure look slick.

I am starting to look at the Empires as well, lots of good comments about them.
I knew I could depend on all you folks to help me spend my money wisely.
Maybe I should just buy one of each and see which one I like best.  aa
I'm off to do some more research, have a good weekend everybody.

[ixlr8]

re; $700 for an old thorens, i would much prefer an empire at half the price, or less.  or even the same price, for that matter.  every once in a while, extremely mint empires do sell for $700 or so, but they are usually a lot less... doug s.

Doug, I know you and Wayner seem to be Empire fans. Care to elaborate on why you would choose an Empire over a Thorens? Is it value, sound, quality, parts, looks, all of the above?

my recommendation is either an unsprung (208/298/398) empire, or a sprung 498/598/698 empire

Which one would you recommend I get, or at least lean towards? I have no clue what all the differences are in these decks. Keep in mind I have no time, or interest, at the moment to swap arms and all the other modding that is done on these decks. I want plug-n-play enjoyment for now. If this becomes a hobby,  and I have time several years from now, I might well join the others with multiple decks. I just don't have the time now to put into it.

[doug s.]

re; $700 for an old thorens, i would much prefer an empire at half the price, or less.  or even the same price, for that matter.  every once in a while, extremely mint empires do sell for $700 or so, but they are usually a lot less... doug s.

Doug, I know you and Wayner seem to be Empire fans. Care to elaborate on why you would choose an Empire over a Thorens? Is it value, sound, quality, parts, looks, all of the above?

my recommendation is either an unsprung (208/298/398) empire, or a sprung 498/598/698 empire

Which one would you recommend I get, or at least lean towards? I have no clue what all the differences are in these decks. Keep in mind I have no time, or interest, at the moment to swap arms and all the other modding that is done on these decks. I want plug-n-play enjoyment for now. If this becomes a hobby,  and I have time several years from now, I might well join the others with multiple decks. I just don't have the time now to put into it.

re: the thorens', i will be frank - it has been years since i lived w/a roomie who had a nice thorens, (don't remember which model), and to be honest, i was never all that impressed.  i think this wintage of thorens that has been suggested here needs a tonearm swap even more than the empires.  and the whole thing yust impresses me as not being nearly as substantial as the empire decks.

why do i like the empires?   well, on a whim, i bought one yust to try, and i was amazed w/its performance, especially w/an upmarket arm.  and yes, i do happen to be fond of its looks, and i love its simplicity.  whether to get unsuspended or suspended, well, if you can yump up and down in your listening room standing in front of your turntable while a record is playing and not get the record to skip, i'd consider an unsuspended empire.     unsuspended empires are much easier to retrofit aftermarket arms to, and except for the extremely rare suspended 498, the more common 598/698's platters are supposedly not as heavy or good, being two-piece.

here's a nice site for empire info.modding.  now, don't go check out the guy's lenco page, you will get screwed up w/another killer budget choice!     (i have never heard the lenco's, so i cannot prowide first hand info.)

http://www.cognitivevent.com/av_empire.html

doug s.

[Scottdazzle]

re; $700 for an old thorens, i would much prefer an empire at half the price, or less.  or even the same price, for that matter.  every once in a while, extremely mint empires do sell for $700 or so, but they are usually a lot less... doug s.

Doug, I know you and Wayner seem to be Empire fans. Care to elaborate on why you would choose an Empire over a Thorens? Is it value, sound, quality, parts, looks, all of the above?

my recommendation is either an unsprung (208/298/398) empire, or a sprung 498/598/698 empire

Which one would you recommend I get, or at least lean towards? I have no clue what all the differences are in these decks. Keep in mind I have no time, or interest, at the moment to swap arms and all the other modding that is done on these decks. I want plug-n-play enjoyment for now. If this becomes a hobby,  and I have time several years from now, I might well join the others with multiple decks. I just don't have the time now to put into it.

re: the thorens', i will be frank - it has been years since i lived w/a roomie who had a nice thorens, (don't remember which model), and to be honest, i was never all that impressed.  i think this wintage of thorens that has been suggested here needs a tonearm swap even more than the empires.  and the whole thing yust impresses me as not being nearly as substantial as the empire decks.

why do i like the empires?   well, on a whim, i bought one yust to try, and i was amazed w/its performance, especially w/an upmarket arm.  and yes, i do happen to be fond of its looks, and i love its simplicity.  whether to get unsuspended or suspended, well, if you can yump up and down in your listening room standing in front of your turntable while a record is playing and not get the record to skip, i'd consider an unsuspended empire.     unsuspended empires are much easier to retrofit aftermarket arms to, and except for the extremely rare suspended 498, the more common 598/698's platters are supposedly not as heavy or good, being two-piece.

here's a nice site for empire info.modding.  now, don't go check out the guy's lenco page, you will get screwed up w/another killer budget choice!     (i have never heard the lenco's, so i cannot prowide first hand info.)

http://www.cognitivevent.com/av_empire.html

doug s.

Doug,

I understand your enthusiasm for old Empires, but your Thorens bashing is misplaced.  You admit that your experience with them is limited.  I suggest that your experience did not include the rugged, heavy, steady, and shock resistant models like the TD 125.  Full disclosure: I have a TD 125 that I am selling only to help finance a VPI Classic.  I have never had a problem or complaint withe the Thorens.  Woodsyi can vouch for its sound quality.

Scott

[Wayner]

Hopefully, your not putting a Grado cartridge in your new VPI classic, as John TheChairGuy is having hum problems with his new classic.

I don't understand why VPI located the motor so close to the cartridge. Up in the upper left hand corner is where it belongs.

Wayner

[doug s.]

Doug,

I understand your enthusiasm for old Empires, but your Thorens bashing is misplaced.  You admit that your experience with them is limited.  I suggest that your experience did not include the rugged, heavy, steady, and shock resistant models like the TD 125.  Full disclosure: I have a TD 125 that I am selling only to help finance a VPI Classic.  I have never had a problem or complaint withe the Thorens.  Woodsyi can vouch for its sound quality.

Scott

scott, i am not sure, but i believe that the thorens i experienced was the lesser 165 or 166.  from what i have read, the 125 is definitely a step up.  which is why i am also into full disclosure, and stated i haven't a lot of thorens experience.  and, i am not "bashing" the thorens', i am sure they are nice decks.  but you are correct - i like the empires, and if i were looking for a used deck, that's where i would be looking.

now, here's a thorens i could lust after; empire certainly never made anything like this:   


best,

doug s.

[Scottdazzle]

I bought a TD 160 and TD 165 for fun a few years ago.  I fixed them up and re-sold them and discovered that the 165, though it looks like a 160, was a lighter-weight version with a plastic inner platter.  The heavy metal inner platter on the 160 and 125 improved speed stability through the flywheel effect.  Also the heavier models suspension is tighter and not susceptible to feedback in my system.

Anyione looking at wintage Empire or Thorens tables should look under the outer platter to make sure they are getting a metal inner platter.

[lonewolfny42]

This is nice. Super condition too.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1246724941&/Thorens-160TB-with-sme-serie-i

Just look for an end of record lifter.
BTW, not my ad but I wouldn't mind having it.

D

I saw that, but I had no idea what it's quality was, where it fit in the scheme of things. I have been looking some, not very hard to be honest, for an 'arm lifter'. The one posted here before on Ebay has had the listing ended, the other was in England and I am not sure how comfortable I am dealing with overseas sales.

i would not have any problem buying something like this from an overseas wendor.  re: the lifter, that seller puts them on ebay one at a time.  he has another one now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130308051711

re; $700 for an old thorens, i would much prefer an empire at half the price, or less.  or even the same price, for that matter.  every once in a while, extremely mint empires do sell for $700 or so, but they are usually a lot less...

doug s.

Might this be a ......nice Empire ??? 

[ixlr8]

Might this be a ......nice Empire ??? 

I am presently considering that Empire and ... This Thorens. Any feedback from the Thorens/Empire supporters on either of these? I don't know what, if any, cartridge comes with the Thorens, I have sent a note to the seller asking that.

[Wayner]

That certainly is a nice piece. Cosmetically, it looks almost perfect. If you consider it, ask if he still has the cartons for it.

Wayner

[doug s.]

i would strongly be considering these two:

starting bid $199, or buy it now $499:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260415775760


buy it now at $325 or make offer.  even if the seller cannot find the counterweight, it is still a good deal, imo, especially if the seller is considering lower offers...   
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280349504754


doug s.

[ixlr8]

Doug, I was looking at those two earlier today, the one missing counterweight is also missing belt, makes me wonder what else it is missing. He bought it, never set it up and now is selling it?? Are there cartridge limitations with either of those Empires?

Wayner, Which one are you considering a nice piece, the Thorens or the Empire... I am guessing the Empire.

Hmmmm may need to actually sign up for an Ebay account.

[Wayner]

Well, I favor the Empire 698, but I did go look at the Thorens and it was nice, I just don't have any experience with them, other then what I've read or have heard from others. Of course, this Empire has a mechanical end of record lift, but they are tricky to set up. I don't use mine.

I always seem to be looking for a Thorens, but the good ones go for some serious bucks.

Wayner

[rajacat]

Awhile ago I bid and  lost on several Empires but then came across a Thorens TD125 which I won for ~$160 + shipping and PP. So for under $200 I had a near mint table that was shipped all the way across the country but naturally it sustained some damage which I corrected with the soldering iron. If you can, I'd definitely try to find a table that can be procured locally. Shipping a TT is always a risk.

So far I'm happy with the TD125 which is a substantial piece of machinery at 35 lbs.+. Since it came with a new but bottom of the line ($30) Audio-Technica cart I can't really give an accurate opinion as to its sound quality. However most owners of it seem to be very happy with its performance. It does have on board speed control.  Soon I'll purchase a new cart and somewhere down the line a better arm. If you go to the Thorens forum at the Vinyl Engine there is lots info about tweaks and upgrades.http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=17&sid=7e73f54120f20b6b6d30993a7e773a7e 

-Roy

[doug s.]

once in a great while, you can find empires for ~$200, but that time is now getting scarcer & scarcer, it seems.  here's one that was a freaking steal, imo - the extremely rare 498; sold at $202.50 - heavier platter of the earlier empires, and sprung suspension of the later ones.  i suspect it would be an easy fix to rectify its running fast, as seller claimed.  i woulda bid if i didn't awreddy have one.  but, it shows good deals, even on ebay, are awailable, if you are patient:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280342704147



the 698's seem to go for a premium, so $600 for that one on a-gon, which looks really nice, seems a decent deal.  i dunno from experience, but i have read that the arms on the 698's are the ones most prone to go out of adjustment, needing work for the auto lift & cueing.  but they sure look cool.

the one on ebay asking $325 obo seems to me to be complete; missing belt is common; likely the original was shot.  from the pics, everything else seems to be there.  and the shure v15ll cartridge is a pretty decent cartridge; afaik replacing the stylus updates it closer to the new ones, but don't quote me on that.  as for the seller never using it, he likely yust picked it up locally and is looking to make a few dollars.  as has been said prior, i'd be most concerned that it is packed well.  separating the platter from the chassis is a good idea for shipping these...

and yes, you should be able to mount most any cartridge on these...
doug s.

[ixlr8]

I just received an email that the Thorens 147 sold 'locally'. Guess I will just have to decide on which Empire I want.

[doug s.]

I just received an email that the Thorens 147 sold 'locally'. Guess I will just have to decide on which Empire I want.

well...  if you really are still interested in the thorens', you might wanna check scotthobby's td 125 on ebay.  while i don't have experience w/these, and while i do like the empires, i do know good things have been said about the thorens' as well.  and, i know scott, and can wouch for the fact that whatever he says about his td 125 is sure to be true.  and i would be surprised if he wouldn't pack it properly.  and, he mentioned he'd give a successful a/c bidder $50 off     his tonearm has awreddy sold, so you will have to find another arm...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120421578051

doug s.