Amp Suggestions for HT3s?

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doug s.

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Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #100 on: 28 May 2009, 03:35 am »
here's my suggestion for amps:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1246073811&/Electrocompaniet-AW400-Mint-Mo

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1247863826&/Electrocompaniet-AW-220-Monobl

these amps deliver current far above what most amps w/similar wpc-ratings amps will deliver, and are stable into loads under 1 ohm.  while i prefer tubes, electrocompaniet amps are what i would choose for solid state.  while i have never heard the ht3's, since most folks say they really need a good s/s amp, i would seriously consider the ec amps w/them...  they are smooth, dynamic, extended, detailed...  not tubes, for sure, but not too far off...

also, i agree w/dennis murphy - i would suspect that the ht4's w/a modestly priced amp would outperform the ht3's w/ an expensive amp (especially in this case, as the ht4 seems to be much easier to drive than the ht3) - i'd inwest the additional money on the speakers instead of on the amp...

on another note, i would consider this preamp - perhaps you wouldn't need a different amp then one that you have already tried...   8)
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1248292924&/Melos-333-Reference-Gold

doug s.

zybar

Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #101 on: 28 May 2009, 10:53 am »
Well, I guess we'll just have to accept the fact that this thread has gone off track.  But I think it's still been useful.  It's certainly motivated me to make another trip up to Boston to hear the HT3's with lots of $$$$ driving them.  My main problem with mega buck amps vs mega buck speakers is that I don't know quite what the theory is behind some of the super expensive amps, whereas it's pretty obvious why an HT4 costs more than an HT3 which costs more than an HT2......................   Deeper bass costs money.  There's no real short cut there.  And copper shorting rings cost more than no shorting rings, and you can document that distortion goes down with the copper.  And two drivers cost more than one, and two give you more sensitivity.  And sloped cabinets, and bigger cabinets, cost more.  But when it comes to amps, and wires, and interconnects---I see the higher price tags, but I don't always see the science or common sense.  Actually, I usually don't see it.  So that's why I'm not willing to accept any claims about amps until I can verify them.   Well, that's true of speakers too.     Uh--what was the question?

Dennis,

I agree that it is easier to understand price differences in speakers, but even there, we all sometimes scratch our heads around prices.

I think we should probably separate discussions on amps vs. cables.  I think it is much easier to measure and see the differences on amps.   :wink:

George


zybar

Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #102 on: 28 May 2009, 10:59 am »
also, i agree w/dennis murphy - i would suspect that the ht4's w/a modestly priced amp would outperform the ht3's w/ an expensive amp (especially in this case, as the ht4 seems to be much easier to drive than the ht3) - i'd inwest the additional money on the speakers instead of on the amp...

doug s.

Doug,

Now you are into a whole other discussion... :o

We move away from what's a good amp for my HT3's to if I spend "X" amount of money, how much should go to speakers and how much should go to amplification?

FWIW, I agree with you guys in that moving up to the HT4's should produce a bigger improvement than making an amp change with the HT3's.  The only reason I say "should" is because I have never heard the HT4's.

George

BrianM

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Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #103 on: 28 May 2009, 12:10 pm »
i would suspect that the ht4's w/a modestly priced amp would outperform the ht3's w/ an expensive amp

I don't want to be a bore, but this is one more example of the unspoken assumption that more expensive equals better! I'm not sure it's even intentional, I just think people reflexively think in these terms about audio (I'm sure I could catch myself doing the same thing at some point). Can we replace the terms 'modestly priced' and 'expensive' with 'average' and 'excellent'?  :)

turkey

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Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #104 on: 28 May 2009, 12:33 pm »

be approached by what you pay for the front end. From that point of view, it is quite unnecessary to spend $15,000 on an amplifier, when that amount of money can get you at least within a shake or two of the best performing speakers to be had - and certainly the best speakers you could hope to appreciate to the fullest in a potentially compromised listening environment.

$15K will easily get you a pair of Geddes Summas and 3 subs, or a Linkwitz Orion++ system.

End of story. :)


turkey

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Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #105 on: 28 May 2009, 12:41 pm »
Again, I am not trying to impose my value system or viewpoint on anybody, I am simply asking that all viewpoints be considered and not make this into a black and white discussion.

Has anyone accused you of trying to impose your values? I don't think you ever have, I don't think I have a reason to think so. I always give consideration to your viewpoint, as you are clearly an experienced listener with a lot of exposure to different stuff. And I hope I don't come across as a black and white sort of guy.


I feel that some things are quite black and white. There is plenty of research showing where we need to be when designing speakers. Too many designers seem to ignore that research.


zybar

Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #106 on: 28 May 2009, 12:41 pm »

be approached by what you pay for the front end. From that point of view, it is quite unnecessary to spend $15,000 on an amplifier, when that amount of money can get you at least within a shake or two of the best performing speakers to be had - and certainly the best speakers you could hope to appreciate to the fullest in a potentially compromised listening environment.

$15K will easily get you a pair of Geddes Summas and 3 subs, or a Linkwitz Orion++ system.

End of story. :)

End of story....hardly.

I haven't heard the Summas yet, but I would take the Salk HT3's over the Orion's any day. 

Oh wait, I did that already.   :duh:

George


turkey

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Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #107 on: 28 May 2009, 12:43 pm »
HT2......................   Deeper bass costs money.  There's no real short cut there.  And copper shorting rings cost more than no shorting rings, and you can document that distortion goes down with the copper.

See the papers by Geddes and Lee about perception of distortion.


zybar

Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #108 on: 28 May 2009, 12:44 pm »
Again, I am not trying to impose my value system or viewpoint on anybody, I am simply asking that all viewpoints be considered and not make this into a black and white discussion.

Has anyone accused you of trying to impose your values? I don't think you ever have, I don't think I have a reason to think so. I always give consideration to your viewpoint, as you are clearly an experienced listener with a lot of exposure to different stuff. And I hope I don't come across as a black and white sort of guy.


I feel that some things are quite black and white. There is plenty of research showing where we need to be when designing speakers. Too many designers seem to ignore that research.

Weren't we talking amps and not speakers?   :scratch:

You don't have to sell me on speaker design and its importance.  My current speakers and purchase of HT3's and SongTowers show my commitment to quality speaker design and implementation.

George

turkey

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Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #109 on: 28 May 2009, 01:06 pm »

I haven't heard the Summas yet, but I would take the Salk HT3's over the Orion's any day. 

Orions or Orion+ or ++?

The original Orions are superior to the HT3s, but they are limited in terms of maximum SPL. The Orion+ is fully dipole, and the ++ goes far towards eliminating the output limits.

Or are you opposed to the Orions because they don't use tweako electronics? :)




rydenfan

Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #110 on: 28 May 2009, 01:19 pm »
Turkey, this is a tread about amps for a Salk speaker in the Salk Speaker circle. Clearly, this is not the place to discuss other speakers.

zybar

Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #111 on: 28 May 2009, 01:23 pm »

I haven't heard the Summas yet, but I would take the Salk HT3's over the Orion's any day. 

Orions or Orion+ or ++?

The original Orions are superior to the HT3s, but they are limited in terms of maximum SPL. The Orion+ is fully dipole, and the ++ goes far towards eliminating the output limits.

Or are you opposed to the Orions because they don't use tweako electronics? :)

Turkey,

I am not opposed to the Orion speakers in any fashion.  I simply feel that the HT3 and many other designs are more complete and more to my liking.  I am a strong believer in active systems and had great success with Emerald Physics CS2's (which I also preferred over the Orion speakers).

I also have no issues with you preferring them - we all have our opinions. 

My system is not built on "tweako electronics".  The products I own and use are built on solid technical engineering principles and designs.

BTW, I try very hard to be a productive member at AC and give something back to the community.  I would appreciate it if you stop with the childish and unproductive jabs and comments.  I will of course provide you the same courtesy. 


George 

doug s.

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Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #112 on: 28 May 2009, 03:56 pm »
i would suspect that the ht4's w/a modestly priced amp would outperform the ht3's w/ an expensive amp

I don't want to be a bore, but this is one more example of the unspoken assumption that more expensive equals better! I'm not sure it's even intentional, I just think people reflexively think in these terms about audio (I'm sure I could catch myself doing the same thing at some point). Can we replace the terms 'modestly priced' and 'expensive' with 'average' and 'excellent'?  :)
no, you are wrong, here.  this is an example of the same price of "set a" will give you better performance, compared to the same price of "set b"; where "set a" is ht4 speaker/lower-priced amp; and "set-b" is ht3 speaker/higher-priced amp.

in one sense, yes, i am generically inferring that a modestly priced amp is not as good as an expensive amp.  however, what i am also inferring is that you are fortunate enough to find the absolute best sounding modest priced amp w/the ht4 and the absolute best sounding more expensive amp w/the ht3.

but, i completely admit that my example rules out the possibility that it is possible that a particular modestly priced amp that is paired w/the ht4's could be better than any amp at even eight times its price.  you win!   :lol:

so:

"average" amp + ht4 > "excellent" amp + ht3

however, i still cannot subscribe to the above, because, like you, i believe that you can get excellent amps that are not that expensive...  8)  of course, the average joe would think a $1k amp is obscenely expensive when you can buy a complete h-t system for that!   :lol:

doug s.

charmerci

Re: Amp Suggestions for HT3s?
« Reply #113 on: 28 May 2009, 04:37 pm »
The assumption is that more expensive = better. In some cases, as in the Salk speaker line, it's true.

In audio, it's often not the case. Expensive = higher material and labor costs, marketing savvy and so on, etc. blah, blah, blah.....