Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ

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Levi

Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« on: 18 Dec 2003, 03:07 am »
Hi all, I am new to this site so my apology if you heard about this question before.

I noticed that the Krell showcase, Krell HTS and Adcom 880 to name a few are using the 24bit/192Mhz DACs.

Are we going to see this feature in the next upgrade on the SP1.7?



Just curious.

nicolasb

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Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #1 on: 18 Dec 2003, 09:46 am »
I think you mean 192kHz. 192MHz DACs would be quite something!  :P

The DACs in the SP1.7 are capable of handling 192kHz, but this is disabled in software. IIRC the Bryston people found that the sound quality was actually slightly poorer with 192kHz enabled.

This is not going to make much of a difference in practice. How many recordings do you possess that are 192kHz-encoded?

Levi

Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #2 on: 19 Dec 2003, 01:47 am »
I got the point and bryston reasoning.  What I don't understand is why other High End companies like Lexicon and Krell just to name a few found a way to make the 192Khz DAC sounded really good in their hometheater products.  Lively.

Another example is the video switching.  Yes they are noisy yet other companies are integrating them without noise.  Hmmm...

You want to see how many 24bit/192Khz enabled recordings/softwares?  I hope you are not just thinking of less than 100.    What about THX UltraII or DTS-ES softwares?  

Quote from: nicolasb
I think you mean 192kHz. 192MHz DACs would be quite something!  :P

The DACs in the SP1.7 are capable of handling 192kHz, but this is disabled in software. IIRC the Bryston people found that the sound quality was actually slightly poorer with 192kHz enabled[in bryston pre/pro not in other systems].

This is not going to make much of a difference in practice. How many recordings do you possess that are 192kHz-encoded?

bubba966

Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #3 on: 19 Dec 2003, 05:20 am »
THX Ultra 2 has nothing to do with software or processing. It's a list of specifications.

James Tanner

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Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #4 on: 19 Dec 2003, 01:15 pm »
HI Levi,

The Dacs in the SP1.7 can operate at 192K - it is untrue that other manufacturers have found a way to use the 192 without more distortion than using them at 96K. The DACs are the same. I think the 'specmanship' of marketing concerns are what motivates others to push the DACs to 192K.
We have looked at every DAC available and believe me every one of them has greater noise and distortion at 192K as opposed to 96K.
Also 96 is really the standard at the recording end now so as another contributor said - 192K is really not much of an issue presently.
This is true of video switching as well - other companies have not found a way to incorporate video without increasing noise. That is why you see a lot of highend DVD players now with the ability to turn the video circuits off when listening to audio CD's.

james

Levi

24Bit/192khz DAC on Bryston SP1.7_Still don't get it
« Reply #5 on: 19 Dec 2003, 02:46 pm »
Hi James,

Now that I have your attention, I recently auditioned a Lexicon MC12 and did not notice the negative effects of DACs running in high frequency.  (I am using the MC12 as an example only as it is not the last word in pre/pro)  Could it be possible that in the future Bryston SPx.x can be manually switched between 96khz and 192khz like most multi-format DVDps?  Would the noise be negligble for the extra resolution and detail when listening or viewing 24bit/192khz materials?

Levi

James Tanner

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Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #6 on: 19 Dec 2003, 02:52 pm »
Hi Levi,

I think if the source material starts to be produced at 192/24 we may consider it but at the present time the answer would be no due to the problems we spoke about earlier. The other issue that may enter into it would be if in fact the DAC's of the future improve when operated at 192K.
We do a lot of systems at the studio level and I do not see a move towards 192 at this point in time.

james

nicolasb

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Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #7 on: 19 Dec 2003, 09:08 pm »
Quote
I recently auditioned a Lexicon MC12 and did not notice the negative effects of DACs running in high frequency.

What was the 192kHz material that you were listening to?

Levi

CD Audiophile Voices 24/196 DSP PonyCanyon
« Reply #8 on: 19 Dec 2003, 10:27 pm »
Quote from: nicolasb
Quote
I recently auditioned a Lexicon MC12 and did not notice the negative effects of DACs running in high frequency.

What was the 192kHz material that you were listening to?


We were listening to CD Audiophile Voices 24/196 DSP PonyCanyon.  They have a couple of volumes on 196khz.  You can also try CD Emi Fujita – Camomile Blend (24bit/192kHz) more than one volume.  Also, Just Friends is a two-sided DVD, which includes a 192kHz/24 and 96khz/24 if you want to do comparison listening.  Also, Ray Brown, Soular Energy (24bit/192khz).  

They also sounded good on my friends McIntosh MVP851
Source, MX134 Processor and amp on a Martin Logan prodigy speakers.

You can purchase 24bit/192khz materials here:
Hi-Resolution Music
2934 Beverly Glen Circle, Suite 280
Los Angeles, CA 90077
310.471.9026

Have you tried listening to a Reb Book CDp w/internal DAC 24bit/192khz analog or a transport connected to an highend external DAC running 24bit/192khz?  Lively. :-)

thomaspf

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Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #9 on: 21 Dec 2003, 09:31 pm »
Not that I believe this thread will lead to anything meaningful but here is at least some data

http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Lexicon/mc12/smr_image_05.html

The Lexicon MC12 uses AD1853JRS converters with integrated opamps as the output stage. They use 2 converters per channel vs. 1 in the Bryston but the quality of the converters and in particular the buffer amplifier is not any better.

Upsampling does not add any information to the data and in particular does not make it any more lively. There is rather a risk of adding all sorts of colorations (the bicubic splines from Wadia come to mind) that did not exisit in the original material.

I do assume when a successor to the SP1.7 will come out that supports the 1394 A&M protocol it will support native 24/192 playback for DVD audio but there is little material out there today. In fact the more interesting material is currently released on SACD. Coincidentally DSD conversion is not supported by either the CS43122 nor the AD1853. As James said the noise floor for 192Khz usage is higher for these DACs and there is nothing any company using either of these chips can do about it.

The DSD1794 from BurrBrown seems to have a slight edge over the competition right now when purely looking at the technical specs. Somehow it has not made it into any mainstream equipment that I know of.

Cheers

    Thomas

nicolasb

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Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #10 on: 21 Dec 2003, 10:22 pm »
All this does beg one question, though (for undeducated souls like myself): if the DACs in the SP1.7 had 192kHz operation enabled, why would that actually be a problem?

If the source material is 192kHz, then it may very well be the case that it won't sound as good as the same recording would do if it had been mastered at 96kHz instead - but how many people actually own both 96kHz and 192kHz versions of the same recording? As it stands, anyone who actually does own any 192kHz source material can't play it at all on an SP1.7 - which has got to be worse than playing it with a high noise floor.

Similarly, if the source material is not 192kHz, then surely what the DACs are doing when playing it back will be exactly the same as it is now, regardless of what they might do in 192kHz mode?

I can see that you might get some grumbles from people who have some really fancy up-sampling equipment for intelligently converting 48kHz signals to 192kHz on the fly - but that's not going to be very many, and all you have to do is say "it'd probably sound better if you only upsampled to 96kHz actually."

So what's the issue? Does allowing 192kHz operation actually adversely affect 96kHz operation?

thomaspf

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Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #11 on: 22 Dec 2003, 01:12 am »
And how exactly do you propose to feed the 192Khz material into the SP1.7 or the Lexicon MC12 for that matter? Single link S/PDIF  AES/EBU is only specified up to 96Khz. The 1394 A&M profile is a standard for sending hirez music streams digitally to a processor.
 
James was very polite but his point was that you need to be careful with the marketing blurb suggesting capabilities that do not exist.

To make things worse, the analog bypass on the Lexicon is actually using 24/96 ADCs to convert the analog wave form into the digital domain before sending it through the DACs again. This will dramatically lower the quality of the signal.


Cheers

   Thomas

nicolasb

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Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #12 on: 22 Dec 2003, 03:26 am »
Quote
And how exactly do you propose to feed the 192Khz material into the SP1.7 or the Lexicon MC12 for that matter?

I don't know. Let's ask Levi how he did it.  8)

Levi

24bit/192khz in the real world not in paper
« Reply #13 on: 22 Dec 2003, 05:48 am »
Quote from: thomaspf
Not that I believe this thread will lead to anything meaningful but here is at least some data

http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Lexicon/mc12/smr_image_05.html

The Lexicon MC12 uses AD1853JRS converters with integrated opamps as the output stage. They use 2 converters per channel vs. 1 in the Bryston but the quality of the converters and in particular the buffer amplifier is not any better.

Upsampling does not add any information to the data and in particular does not make it any more lively. There i ...

Some companies use AD...some BB...some pure class A... it actually  boils down to which ears it sounded good to.   May I asked you based on your real world experience about upsampling, how would you compare the sound of 96 vs 192? Lively :)

Levi

Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #14 on: 22 Dec 2003, 06:06 am »
Quote from: thomaspf
And how exactly do you propose to feed the 192Khz material into the SP1.7 or the Lexicon MC12 for that matter? Single link S/PDIF  AES/EBU is only specified up to 96Khz. The 1394 A&M profile is a standard for sending hirez music streams digitally to a processor.
 
James was very polite but his point was that you need to be careful with the marketing blurb suggesting capabilities that do not exist.

To make things worse, the analog bypass on the Lexicon is actually using 24/96 ADCs to convert the analog ...


I'll pickup on the marketing stand point.  Why include DTS-ES or THX-Ultra or 7.1 channel when most studios like the 5.1 channel mix?  Is this a good example of marketing blurb?

Another point worth asking...if your CDp has 24/192 DAC connected to a pre-amp with 24/192 DAC via s/pdif, would you hear 24/192 resolution when playing 24/192 encoded media?  enough with the Lively :)

bubba966

Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #15 on: 22 Dec 2003, 07:25 am »
Quote from: Levi
I'll pickup on the marketing stand point.  Why include DTS-ES or THX-Ultra or 7.1 channel when most studios like the 5.1 channel mix?  Is this a good example of marketing blurb?


THX Select/Ultra/Ultra II has nothing to do with sound formats. It's really only a list of hardware specifications.

And any 5.1 digital source can be run in DTS ES, DD EX, or "7.1". It doesn't need to be mixed in ES or EX to be run in a 6.1 or 7.1 mode. Sure, usually nothing is back there. But quite frequnetly there are things back there in a regular 5.1 mix.

And running Xbox games in 6.1 or 7.1 actually works real well. They don't design them that way, but it works...

thomaspf

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Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #16 on: 22 Dec 2003, 07:40 pm »
Levi,

the point I was making is much simpler. You did never hear 24/192 material through the Lexicon because it can't do that! The digital and analog inputs are 24/96 only.

I have heard a whole range of upsampling DACs as well as playing around with various upsampling algorithms on my PC. Certain upsampling introduces a peculiar edginess that I assume you interpret as lively but many would consider a digital artefact.

In my office system I am running a Monarchy Audio M22C and I am very happy with the sound.

We should just close this thread.

Happy holidays

    Thomas

Levi

Bryston SP1.7
« Reply #17 on: 22 Dec 2003, 09:06 pm »
Quote from: thomaspf
Levi,

the point I was making is much simpler. You did never hear 24/192 material through the Lexicon because it can't do that! The digital and analog inputs are 24/96 only.

I have heard a whole range of upsampling DACs as well as playing around with various upsampling algorithms on my PC. Certain upsampling introduces a peculiar edginess that I assume you interpret as lively but many would consider a digital artefact.

In my office system I am running a Monarchy Audio M22C and I am very happy with the sound.

We should just close this thread.

Happy holidays

    Thomas

I don't know where you are getting your miss information.  
To clarify things:
Lexicon MC12 DAC is 24-bit, 44.1 to 192kHz, multi-bit  architecture, operating in dual-mono mode
1 optical S/PDIF.  

If you want to hear 24/192 resolution, just use the coax cable with your 24/192 CDp and 24/192 source.

thomaspf

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Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #18 on: 22 Dec 2003, 09:55 pm »
Since you seem to insist:

The Lexicon MC12 manual states:
Digital inputs are compatible with 44.1, 48, 88.2, and 96 Khz.

Just like the Bryston.

I don't own a CD player that would output 24/192 over coax. Which player did you use?

Levi

Bryston SP1.7 24BIT/192MHZ
« Reply #19 on: 23 Dec 2003, 02:57 am »
I called Lexicon Tech support  Tel: (781) 280-0300 and they told me the same exact thing I posted...It will decode 24/192khz signal.  Not that this will go anywhere.  We used a McIntosh MVP851 DVD/CD/Video CD Player and it is on S/PDIF(Optical).

I will be out on a vacation and be back next year.

Have a nice Holidays!

Levi