[zybar]

Thanks, targa, for the detailed post on your impressions of the BB!  I would like to suggest, with all due respect, the following.

1. Position 3 is recommended by Bob for SS amps. It would be interesting to note the differences heard at the meet if your are to hook up tube amps to the BB using the positions recommended, by Bob, in post 1 of this thread.

2. In your next listening session, if you could, select program material with an emphasis on high frequency content. This is where the non-cell portion of the BB is supposed to affect the quality of playback the most, as Bob explained it to me. While some might protest that by suggesting this I am predisposing to you a form of expectation  bias, and that might be true, it is also true that sometimes it is also useful to know just what to listen for when listening for differences.

Targa,

Excellent post and thanks for taking the time and effort to make it very informative.

George

[Aether Audio]

Friends,

Please let us reserve this thread strictly for listening impressions.  For those that have heard them, please feel free to "post away"! 

Thanks
-Bob

[JP78]

JP78, no offense but have you read about the BB?  Read Bob's announcement over one more time and you'll see he does not need to decide what this product is.  Your no. 2 is already decided.  Bob speaks to it in his announcement, and specifically to your issues already in this thread

the standard boxes will come with some Velcro to use for support if forced to hang from the back (i.e., monitors or posts up high on the back of an enclosure).

Rack mount?  This is a speaker box that goes, with most conventional speakers, at the speaker binding posts.  It could hang off the back of the speaker with velcro, if needed.  In my scenario it will sit between the amp and the SP Tech Mundorf crossovers (as they are considered aprt of the speaker compliment).

I'm, not sure where you got that this might be anywhere near a rack mount tweak...    not so. 

edit: corrected by ted

ted - you're going to have to work much harder to offend me my friend . with regards to the black box, there are no hardwired leads included, and the box looks way too large for the components inside of it.  i certainly wouldn't want to use any type of a strong adhesive on the back of my speakers to hold something that heavy on the back (ask anybody that had trouble taking blue tack off their speakers).  with all the unused volume inside, i feel that the size (and mass) of the device could be reduced maybe 30% or more, which would only save bob materials and labor, as well as allow for a suspended installation or much milder adhesive. 

as for the rackmount suggestion, unless i'm mistaken this device goes between amplifier and speakers. why would it make any difference if the box were closer to the amp or the speaker? for customers that need several of these, it would actually be much more cost effective as well as much cleaner in terms of installation to put all of the devices in a single enclosure on the rack.  in terms of overall circuit, if you believe that that having longer leads on either the speaker side of the black box is going to be negatively effected by an *impedance matching device*....well then i don't know what to tell you.

i did read the whole thread, and like you i wish him nothing but the best...i think part of the reason manufacturers value the circles is because of honest opinions and feedback. he's welcome to do with my constructive criticism as he likes...and let's be honest that probably won't be a whole lot.

best

[ted_b]

JP78,
I give up then.  You are reading some other thread and reacting to this one, apparently.  The box is less than 5 x 4 inches and is only 2 inches deep.  It comes with hardwired cables from the BB to the speaker binding posts.  No other cables (except the ones you already used to the speaker, which now go to the BB) are used!!!!  Did you notice this in Bob's remarks???

I'm using standard wire (permanent - built into the box) pigtails on the output unless it's a special order

The box in the pictures is a testing prototype with a knob on it for choosing resistances, etc.  I'm surprised you didn't complain about those, too (cuz they won't be on the production model you get).

Please read the thread again and post relevant questions.  Thanks.

[JP78]

ted! funny what a difference a word makes. in the line you posted below, i had originally read "it's" as "isn't".  that's damned foolish of me.

ah well, apologies to you. i have edited and noted where necessary, with the proper deference to you .

and the beat goes on...

[ted_b]

I'm confused.  I did not edit any of your threads (I can't do that, only you or a moderator can).  Futhermore, I have no idea what the "it's and isn't" refers to, but IT'S irelevant now.  The simple truth is that you misread Bob's description and intent of the BB, but now have gone through your posts and done some revisionist editing, pointing back at me....not sure why.

Facts: it HAS hardwired leads to the speaker (keeping you from having to buy new speaker wire or expensive jumpers, etc.), is small enough for velcro, and sits near to the speaker with speaker leads, not in an equipment rack with your sources.  Dunno what else I can tell you.  I hope you test it someday and can use a pair or two.   

[doug s.]

ted b, i don't see what you are giving jp78 such grief about - there is no reason this bb couldn't sit by the amp(s) if someone preferred this location, w/speaker cables running from the bb to the speakers.  whether you would want a rack-mount dewice even if the unit is next to the amp is another question.  whether or not the bb's placement closer to speakers or to amp makes a difference performance-wise, well i think sp prez's bob would be able to answer this.  i don't see what all the fuss is about.   

doug s.

[ted_b]

Doug, that's just one aspect.  ( BTW, rack mount a 5 x 4 little box?)    At one point JP78 didn't want to have to buy additional cables either (which would be required if you are leaving it on the amp rack) but edited that out of all his responses once he realized the facts about a hardwired dongle, and changed his approach; I'd already responded.     Anyway....if you read this thread now (after all the revisionism), I'm the crazy one.  I'm done with it.

Bob,
Do you have any pics of the smaller production-ready box yet?

[doug s.]

ya, ed, you are right - to mount this anywhere other than directly next to amp or speakers would call for extra cabling, or a long hard-wire attachment to the bb.  i am sure bob can accommodate whatever configuration a buyer wants.  i'd yust wanna know if there is any sonic difference between placing the bb  closer to speaker or amp...

doug s.

[whubbard]

...Isn't the point that it fixes what happens in the cables, therefore if you place it at the amp it will be useless?

-West

[doug s.]

...Isn't the point that it fixes what happens in the cables, therefore if you place it at the amp it will be useless?

-West

dunno - i thought it was to "fix" what happens w/the amp-cable interface and the speakers.  as i said, bob can enlighten us...

doug s.

[Aether Audio]

Ted_B & JP78,

Oy..veh... 

C'mon guys... just keep telling yourselves "it's only audio" (& just a little black box at that).  Let's all get along - OK?   I suppose it's mostly my fault as I often don't fill in the blanks at first.  So... maybe this will help clear things up a little.

JP78 - First of all there's less room in the BB than you might think.  Extruded aluminum boxes aren't exactly cheap in low quantities, so I packed them as tight as I could get away with to keep the size/ cost down.  Then... they're not at all empty either as I fill the remaining space with epoxy potting compound. 

Second, while they won't be "light," they won't be so heavy either that a guy *couldn't* hang them off the back of the speaker simply by their pigtails/spades.  Of course you'd wanna make sure the binding post nuts were nice and tight.  Even still, it's better to strain relieve them with some PSA Velcro on the box and mating speaker back panel surface.  The only alternative is to make ridiculously long pigtails and set them on the floor behind the speaker.  Since from a production standpoint and in order to keep costs down, one desires to create a "standard" version of a product, having really long pigtails incurs further cost that in the end... many might not prefer to use in the first place. 

The other alternative is to simply use output binding posts.  Well, then either the customer has to go and obtain another length of speaker cable or use a temporary one that I provide with the box.  Then I have to charge more for longer wires with connectors on both ends to go with every BB, that a lot of guys will end up throwing in the closet anyway and substituting with their own favorite brand.  If I don't provide them... then somebody will squawk that they can't immediately use their BB "out of the box."

SOLUTION!!!  I have now decided to offer 2 standard versions.  #1 comes with permanent 6-inch pigtail w/spade output leads - for $199.50 each.  #2 comes with a pair of Gold Cardas binding posts for the output that matches the ones used on the inputs - for $214.50 each.  For #2 version the customer has to provide his own extra speaker wires to use between the BBs and his speakers.

How's that?    Everybody happy now? 

OK... the other issue.  The BLACK BOX can be used at the amplifier output with no harm and it will still provide a significant improvement in the sound.  But... the potential is reduced because of the speaker wire resistance between the BB and the speaker.  It is best to put the speaker wire resistance before the BB instad of after it.  In fact, there may be  a potential for improving its effectiveness by actually INCREASING the resistance BEFORE the BB.  App. note follows.

Application Note #1

To *possibly* further enhance the total system performance using the Black Box I suggest somebody try the following:

Use the shortest leads reasonably possible (as in the 6-inch pigtail version) between the BB and the speaker.  Next, use the largest gauge speaker wire you are likely to prefer/have available/can afford.  Listen and enjoy.  Pay particular attention to the sound of the bass and note its speed and accuracy.  Retain a mental image of that sound.

Next, start experimenting with successively smaller gauges of speaker wire while paying close attention to the bass.  At some point the wire gauge will get small enough where bass definition, speed and accuracy will decrease.  Going further will produce "bloated" and sloppy bass.  Now... at the gauge wherein you noticed the slight but obvious decrease in bass quality, move back up to the next largest gauge of wire.  THAT (in theory - and that depends on a lot of variables) *might* give you the best overall performance. 

Application Note #2

In the event that you attempt the procedure in App. Note #1 and find that the performance only gets worse and that the largest gauge wire produces the best results... disregard App. Note #1 and conclude that Bob is full of crap!

Have fun guys! 
-Bob

[woodsyi]

I don't know Mr. Smith.

I respect your speakers and I respect the people who like and own your speakers. 

I can't, however, pay money to buy a mysterious black box from Aether (luminous vapor) Audio without understanding the science that goes into it.  I may ultimately be a subjectivist but I need to be convinced with at least a modicum of objective rationals in the beginning.  Call it woodsyi's razor.  What is the box compensating and how does it do that?

[ted_b]

I don't know Mr. Smith.

I respect your speakers and I respect the people who like and own your speakers. 

I can't, however, pay money to buy a mysterious black box from Aether (luminous vapor) Audio without understanding the science that goes into it.  I may ultimately be a subjectivist but I need to be convinced with at least a modicum of objective rationals in the beginning.  Call it woodsyi's razor.  What is the box compensating and how does it do that?

Then demo it before you buy Woodsyi.   

[Phil]

For the benefit of my fellow audiophiles and my own audionervosa, I'll try the LBB at the amp and at the speakers when it is my turn to beta them.  Of course, my wires aren't the same as your wires, so the results won't be definitive.

For those who are biwiring, I'll try the LBB on the tweeters and woofers only as well as with jumpers to test high and low frequencies.   

Phil

[juanitox]

I don't know Mr. Smith.

I respect your speakers and I respect the people who like and own your speakers. 

I can't, however, pay money to buy a mysterious black box from Aether (luminous vapor) Audio without understanding the science that goes into it.  I may ultimately be a subjectivist but I need to be convinced with at least a modicum of objective rationals in the beginning.  Call it woodsyi's razor.  What is the box compensating and how does it do that?

hi, i'm from FRANCe and don't know mr or misses smith too..

but i have heard his speaker, and i have ordered a B.B  without any doubt in my mind ,  some guys know what they do , and he knows

[Aether Audio]

woodsyi,

I respect your speakers and I respect the people who like and own your speakers.

Thank you!

I may ultimately be a subjectivist but I need to be convinced with at least a modicum of objective rationals in the beginning.

Congratulations - me too!!   

Just ask anybody that knows me... or better yet, check out all of my other postings wherein I answer folk's technical questions about SP Tech speakers ad infinitum.  I am a science and "facts" nut - period. 

Unfortunately... the "other" thing I am is of very modest means - especially lately.    The family and I are still eating and living in a building (it barely qualifies as a house) with heat and a roof over our heads... but... I sure can't afford a patent lawyer.  Now think about this a minute.  If some poor knucklehead like me can build these things in his basement and still manage to sell them for a couple of "C" notes, can you imagine what some factory in China that is well equipped could do if they knew exactly what to build??  They would crank them out for less than $50 bucks a piece RETAIL by the thousands!!!  I'd be out of business before I ever got started - IF... they found out just what was in them.

It's gonna happen anyway - you can count on it.  Some jerk is going to buy one, find a way to take it apart and/or use a gamma ray (sorry... x-rays won't work ) imaging machine, and the next thing you know they'll be everywhere.  By then I'll either be SOL or I'll have managed to outsource them and do the same myself.

So sorry... the best I can do is this: (1) They address a source of distortion that occurs at the amplifier/speaker interface and (2) they address a form of noise latent in every electronic system.

I can't, however, pay money to buy a mysterious black box from Aether (luminous vapor) Audio

Well, you're a bit off on the "luminous vapor" part, but I won't pick nits.  You get me started and I'll be here all day.    I just love theoretical physics. aa  But... because the "aether" concept does run against the grain of orthodox physics, I thought it an appropriate name.   If you wanna get into some cool stuff, check out Einstein Cartan Evans (ECE) Theory. http://www.aias.us/  It's not an "aether" based theory... but it's still pretty cool.  While your at it, check out Tom Beardon http://www.cheniere.org/  Tesla was "the BOMB" and we're still scratching our heads on some of his stuff but Tom and Mr. "audio-amp "http://www.bedini.com/ http://www.icehouse.net/john34/ are sneaking up on him.  Finally... http://www.16pi2.com/ http://www.aspden.org/ http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message554188/pg1... you gotta love this stuff  aa ... but only if you're wound a little tight!

Take care 
-Bob


PS.

but i have heard his speaker, and i have ordered a B.B  without any doubt in my mind ,  some guys know what they do , and he knows

Thanks Rohan!!!

[BRIAN DK]

In all my years with audio as a hobby and a business, I have never heard at tweak like this.

I'm playing on a notebook based system with a modified Orpheus One DAC, eAR 1001 mono poweramps and at the moment SP Timepiece Mini speakers. These speakers are the most revealing, accurate speakers / monitors I have ever listened to, they just shows what is in front of them. I my opinion my system was very open, dynamic and life like.

Then Bob offered me an opportunity to try his Black Boxes, one of the earlier Prototypes without the "Smith Cell". On my system it was very obvious, that this was insane. What an improvement... the sound was so lifelike and clear. My wife, whom has become a good listener over the years, was reading a magazine in a chair with here back to the system. She turned around after a few seconds and looked at me and said loudly; " Call Bob and tell Him He's crazy!"

Seriously, this is absolute the most convincing tweak I've ever heard. The sound gets even more accurate with these BB's on. It's like the signal gets cleaned up, or gets rid of some sort of artifacts. Leaving the original signal undisturbed and uncolored. The imagining gets pinpoint accurate and realistic, with a very wide and deep soundstage. Its like overtones and roomcues gets to your ears without any smear or ringing. Just leaving what was originally recorded. It affects all of the signal, the Bass gets cleaner and more articulated, the mids and highs gets more focused. It's like the amplifiers gets more control over the entire range, better start / stop abilities. Voices and instruments are like carved in stone. More realistic than ever.

Imagine a poor TV reception on a cheap antenna, when You turn the antenna, the picture gets cleaner and more detailed. The BB's do something like this to the sound.

I will keep these prototypes till I can get my hands on some of the new ones with the Smith Cell included, period. 

[serengetiplains]

Ether OT

Bob, for a new twist on the ether theory, see Frank Wilczek's Lightness of Being.  Wilczek is part of the small team of two that defined modern quark theory.  His conclusion: space weighs.  Space is a somethingness.

[bhobba]

Well, you're a bit off on the "luminous vapor" part, but I won't pick nits.  You get me started and I'll be here all day.    I just love theoretical physics. aa  But... because the "aether" concept does run against the grain of orthodox physics, I thought it an appropriate name.  

Want an actual aether theory?  Check out:
http://www.ilja-schmelzer.de/glet/

The reason an aether is not liked in modern physics is rather fundamental really.  All attempts to detect it have failed miserably.  It would also invalidate the principle of relativity which is strongly supported by all areas of physics eg classical physics and EM.

Thanks
Bill