[orientalexpress]

It's the black wires positive or negative?It's had no marking on the wires.mine came with black and white wire to the speakers.Thanks

lapsan

[Mariusz]

After the post by Mariusz I was curious to try the BB with my Omega A8s. These are single driver aperiodic cabinets using the Visaton B200 8" drivers. I use a contour network with these to lineralise the inherent rising response of the B200. I had these before I got the Timepiece Minis. Previously I had thought the contour network had imposed a strange sonic signature to the sound which caused me to seek a better speaker in the Minis. After hooking up the BBs, there was a smoothness and continuity which was present without the network but was now present WITH the network!  In addition there was a vast sound stage which extended waaay beyond the walls of my listening room. This had never happened previously with the A8s. I have no idea why this is. It makes the sound of the A8s much closer to the Minis. There is a precision and high frequency extension to the sound as well. I'm just wondering why my results are so markedly different from Mariusz. I was not expecting such a dramatic change. I guess the effect of the BBs are VERY system dependent

Since BBs are still in my possession (for unforeseen reasons) waiting to be shipped to the next guy in few day (at least) I will give it another shot. I will try them with my own speakers this time around.
With Omegas Super 8s the effect wasn't astonishing and the only thing that I have noticed was the sound which could be described as more recessed accompanied by sunken transparency.
The 3 setting selector also did not do much. But then again - I wasn't forcing myself into digging the differences which I thought and was ready to hear immediately and audibly enough to say it is a wonder box. It just did not happened.

But let me try it again with different speakers and I will get back to this thread in few days.
Who knows - it might change my mind this time around.

Mariusz

[konut]

I'm pretty sure the black is negative.

[juanitox]

BB is adopted with no reserve 

no return is possible.. all is clean , bass is tight , instruments seems more separated. all sounds more natural than ever.  aa

perhaps it's the fact i have a 90db 4homs speaker with a Low 25 watt SET amp .  but it seems that the B.B make the things more easy for the amp.  anyway it's not like changing speaker or amplifier  but more like a difference between a normal cable and a great matching one.    but it will not transform a 128K MP3 into a Wave listening

just something more  " subtil" in the air with the B.B

thanks again BOB , in a word : OOOPS you did it again

rohan

[konut]

I guess I should also note that the differences with and without the BBs are dependent on the recording as well. This is evident on both the A8s and Minis. I use my system on my TV as well as for other sources so this is evident on shows and commercials as well. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to this either. Live recordings vary as well as multi-tracks. The ONLY thing that is common is that the better the recording the more dramatic the improvement, though this is not always the case 100% of the time.

[satfrat]

Since BBs are still in my possession (for unforeseen reasons) waiting to be shipped to the next guy in few day (at least) I will give it another shot. I will try them with my own speakers this time around.
With Omegas Super 8s the effect wasn't astonishing and the only thing that I have noticed was the sound which could be described as more recessed accompanied by sunken transparency.
The 3 setting selector also did not do much. But then again - I wasn't forcing myself into digging the differences which I thought and was ready to hear immediately and audibly enough to say it is a wonder box. It just did not happened.

But let me try it again with different speakers and I will get back to this thread in few days.
Who knows - it might change my mind this time around.

Mariusz

 
 
Hi Bob,
 
Seeing how your PM box is full, I was unable to have this PM request delivered, hense the need to post.
 
I'm wondering if it would be ok for me to audition your Black Box's from Mariusz, seeing how the next member on the tour is on vacation? Mariusz is willing to send them out saturday if it's OK with you. I am pretty reliable when it comes to posting my impressions and would be willing to send them on to the next member once he's back from vacation. Thanks for your consideration Bob.   
 
Cheers,
Robin

[Aether Audio]

Robin & Mariusz,

Check your e-mail. 

Everyone,

I'm in CA right now so I'll be available when I get home next week.

Take care, 
-Bob

[whubbard]

I'm not out on vacation! 
And I believe I'm next on the list at least according to the email I got from Bob about a week ago!

-West

[juanitox]

  hi everybody ,  little update with the B.B  .  i have change my set-up with new avant-garde speaker (104db) and now the B.B bring nothing to the sound     very system dependant you've said ?!

so there is a brand new pair of B.B to sell 

[br85]

Bob,

I too believe you are a godsend to the audio industry, and that your products are making the absolute most of current technology on the post-amplifier side of things. It's a shame people like you struggle to eat and live comfortably, while other marketing guru's who dupe audiophiles into spending near millions on rubbish are living the high life.

There are a few recommendations I have for you though.

1. Applying for a patent seems a bit silly in this day and age. People are putting patents on some of the DUMBEST things, and they don't really seem to benefit anybody except the lawyers who processed them (blood suckers for the most part). Look into getting a copyright or trademark, these seem a bit more tangible and may even be more affordable in some cases.

2. Inquiring minds want to know what this black box actually does. We all trust you a lot here, Bob, but gaining trust like this has happened before, where it is very easy for you to take advantage of the trust you have earned, and pull a fast one on us. We don't need to know how it works, just what it is supposed to DO. By the way, this is not to imply that you are now no longer trustworthy and need to prove anything to us, it's just a suggestion, it gives the skeptic in us no reason for any doubt.

If you're worried about people copying it, I would be much more comfortable donating smaller amounts money to you (you should set up a paypal acount for this purpose) in order to obtain a trademark, copyright or (if you have to) patent, than dropping hundreds of dollars on something completely mysterious. I'm sure many others would feel the same. Accepting donations for a cause like that is not below anyone, it is not abuse of trust, and it is a genuine way to get the ball rolling on something like this. (being that I live in aus, there's no real way to take advantage of your money-back-guarantee, still lose hundreds of $$ to USPS)

Also on SP's range of speakers - once the mess is getting sorted and the backorders aren't such a nightmare I would like to contact you regarding the building of a version of TP3.0s less the crossovers. I realise you spent a LONG time perfecting them, but I'm just not happy with passives anymore, on any system. Anyway that could be a long way down the track.

*I should make it clear that no disrespect or character defamation or doubt was intended by this post. Someday I hope to own my very own set of TP's, Bob is one of the few people I've seen who's bravely marketing to people that are smart enough to not be suckers, and THAT is no way to make easy money. You are a shining light in the dark world of audio. Don't let people take advantage of that.

[johnj]

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[TRADERXFAN]

Enforcement is where the costs come in, and that is what Bob is trying to avoid.

[johnj]

removed

[Aether Audio]

PART - 1

br85,

Thanks so much for your kind words.  I really appreciate the fact that folks recognize my efforts in sharing the facts, as I understand them to be, with as much honesty and lack of hype as possible.  The basis behind every debate and the ongoing struggles facing our world all comes down to a question of truth.  I certainly don't have anywhere near a monopoly thereof, but what I believe I do understand, I feel compelled to share as long as others welcome it.

With regards to the Black Boxes though, I find myself in a bit of a quandary in that regard.  Personally, I would love to share every bit of information possible and most here at AC know me well enough that if I were to err in that regard, it would normally be to the extreme of excess rather than any lack thereof.  Unfortunately the realities of our world prohibit me from doing so without incurring potential loss to myself.

TRADERXFAN hit the nail directly on the head with his comment.  More than one entrepreneur has told me that a patent of any type isn't worth the paper it's written on if you don't have the resources to defend it in court.  In fact, if that's the case then filing can work against you as then you reveal your idea openly to anybody that chooses to take the trouble to read it and all patents are public domain for review.  At this time I can surely tell you I don't have the resources to even begin to legally defend any patent, regardless of how "clear cut" any infringement may be.

I can say though that I am now working with another company that can very easily defend any patent infringement.  At some point in the not-too-distant future we may see the technology incorporated in the BBs being offered on a much larger scale and under a different name.  Before that happens though, it is an almost certainty that a patent will be applied for, and most likely granted.  Until then I still have to watch my tongue and limit how much I share.

To help appease those of you that grapple with a "need to know" and have come to expect almost excessive explanations from me, I will share the following:

As part of an evolutionary process in my own understanding, we are finding that the BBs exhibit their greatest effect when inserted into an amplifier/speaker system wherein the amplifier's output impedance over the range of frequencies being "treated" is lower than that of the speaker.  The BBs take advantage of this "mis-match" and thereby reduce both primary and secondary distortions that result at the interface between the amplifier and the speaker.  Essentially all amp/speaker combinations suffer from these distortions to one degree or the other.  I can't go into what the nature of the "primary" distortion is, but I can say that the "secondary" form is a byproduct of the amplifier's negative feedback/error correcting circuitry failing to make the proper corrections for the "primary" distortion terms.  In that, the amplifier is actually generating distortion that would not have been there otherwise had no negative feedback bee used at all.

Now, before you go there, virtually every amplifier uses some form of negative feedback.  Many do not utilize what is called a "global" loop, but they typically will still use some form of local loop in their output stage.  In many cases such as SETs, that local loop may be for little more than to linearize the output transfer function and/or for stability reasons, but usually there is some form of feedback being used.  In fact, it may be nothing more than the intrinsic parasitic feedback resulting from the proximity of the internal tube elements to one another, but it's still there. 

Regardless, any form of feedback offers both the potential to do (very much) good and (usually) a small potential for generating bad side effects.  This is why many manufacturers either try to minimize their use of negative feedback or (claim to) not use any at all.  The truth is that a proper (read: "ideal") implementation thereof is no trivial matter.  Negative feedback is the primary source of what we call "Damping Factor," and an infinite DF from 0 to light frequencies would be the "holly grail" of amplifier design. 

The problem is that creating such a product would require that every component in the device have an identical 0 - ∞ response speed, which is practically impossible.  Hence, the designer is forced to make some form of compromise in the design.  Pushing the response of what is called the "external loop" out to progressively higher frequencies increasingly incurs the risk of amplifier instability and (potentially) eventual self-destruction.  You see, external load conditions (i.e., speakers) can present a potentially dangerous set of reactive terms that would shift the amplifier's stability "phase-margin" into an unsafe "zone," such that the amp would either produce fairly severe distortion or literally blow/burn up its output stages.

[Aether Audio]

PART-2

In the end you basically have two classes of products.  In my opinion the more ideal of the two would be that which was designed by a very gifted engineer who has managed to extend the response of the external loop out to the highest possible frequency, while also maintaining a very stable and solid phase-margin under all load conditions.  I believe this type of amplifier represents the highest potential for accuracy and resolution.  Unfortunately such products are very rare indeed.

Conversely we have products being offered by the (in my opinion) "not so gifted" set.  They see the struggle to achieve the above goal to be so great and fraught with hazards that they simply choose to avoid the issue altogether.  Instead, they intentionally use either very little or no external feedback and thereby purposefully "wreck" the potential for low output impedance/high DF in their designs.  "If you can't do it right, then don't do it at all" seems to be their motto and "less is more" their mantra.  The upshot is that while it's true such designs do not incur the "secondary" form of distortion mentioned above, then again they do nothing to reduce the "primary" form either.

OK, so now we find that there is a specific class of amplifiers that the BBs have the potential to significantly improve system performance when inserted with.  This is the class that uses some form of negative feedback, or at the very least, exhibits an output impedance that is lower than that of the speaker in a range from about 1KHz on up. 

Good luck though asking your amplifier manufacturer just what its amplifier output impedance profile is from 20 to 20KHz and above.  They will often quote a value as expressed in DF, but there's usually an unspoken "qualifier" involved.  The truth is, DF is usually measured at some low frequency, often around 100Hz or a bit below.  If you ask them what it is at 5kHz or thereabout, you'll likely get some comment that it doesn't matter and/or that the resistance of your speaker wires would limit it anyway.  A likely comment would be that such a specification is "meaningless."  Don't you believe it, though.  The fact is that output impedance rises (and DF drops) significantly, starting in at around 500 to 1,000Hz in even very robust SS amps that use relatively large amounts of external loop feedback.

But the "size" (physical or power) of the amplifier is not a direct indicator.  Neither is the basic design be it SET, Push-Pull Tube, Switching, nor Linear SS.  Any of these can be designed to have an output impedance at frequencies above 1kHz to be lower than a typical speaker (4-Ohms or higher).  There is a "general" rule though.  SETs by their very nature will typically have the highest output impedance at ANY frequency, as compared to most any other design.  Also, any amp that obviously claims to use no negative feedback will have a higher output Z as well. 

In any case, the question is "how high can the output Z be and still get good results from the BBs"?  In my estimation, if the output Z of a given amp is 2-Ohms or below from around 1kHz to say, at least 5kHz, the BBs offer a significant potential for an improvement in system performance.  If the output Z is around 2-Ohms or even a bit higher, but the speaker's impedance in that region is 8-Ohms or above, then there's still a good chance for improvement using the BBs.  Let's put it this way, if the amp's output Z at high frequencies is equal to (or God forbid) higher than the impedance of the speaker, save your $$$ and forget the BBs.  In fact, I *could* recommend what to do with the money saved, but I'd likely ruffle some feathers if I did.

Oh, and if you have an amp that offers extremely low output Z and high DF all the way out to 20KHz and beyond, the BBs might not do much for your system either.  After all, why would you need them?  You already have the "perfect" amplifier.  aa

There is one other aspect to the BBs design that I haven't covered in any of the above.  That part has to do with the most "patentable" aspect of the BBs design.  I'm calling that the "Smith Cell" and all I can say is that it is intended to lower 1/f noise as another "well-known" product is claimed to do, although via a completely different mechanism.  This aspect also has the potential to be expanded upon and applications developed for other uses, even in other industries.  Therefore I can't say any more about it at this time other than to tell you that its action is not affected by the amplifier's output impedance whatsoever.  Therefore, even in the least likely of cases outlined above where the BBs could "theoretically" not be a predictable "good fit," there is still a chance they might help a little.

Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  See what you started?  Now leave me alone so I can get back to work! 

Take care all, 
-Bob

[johnj]

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[johnj]

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[ted_b]

Sorry for not proofing that first sentence. 

Just edit it.  You can go back and edit any post you've made.

[johnj]

thanks

[Aether Audio]

Guys,

My previous posting regarding the Black Boxes and amplifier output impedance got me to thinking.  Tics me off that this didn't come to me sooner.   It IS possible that by moving the BBs directly to the output of the amp and then running your speaker cables from it's output to the speakers *may* improve their performance.  I would suspect that would be most notably so with regards to the higher output impedance amp scenario outlined in my last posting (juanito... this means you too).  I sure wish I had thought of this earlier when a few of the first guys had tried them.  They along with the rest of us may have benefited from their experiences.      

Also, they just may work better hooked up that way with those amps that do have a lower output Z as well.  Those of you that have already purchased them and have the version with the pigtails, you can try reversing them and connecting the spade lugs to the output of the amp and then use (what is labeled as) the inputs to connect your speaker cables to.  Have no fear... no harm will be done.  I can't guarantee anything, but it would make for an interesting experiment.

If anybody tries this, please feel free to post your results.  Have a great weekend guys and...

Take care,
-Bob