[Aether Audio]

Gene,

Now if he can just get my TP 3.0's outta the way, he'll have a lot more time for the BB's.

Good news!  aa  You might want to start thinking of getting those Minis packed up. 

The problem I have is what to do if you don't want your BB to be black?

All things are possible (well... almost).    Just let me know.

-Bob

[maxwalrath]

Sounds very similiar to the speltz zero box.

I thought those matched or raised the impedance.

[Aether Audio]

Guys,

Here's an application drawing for the "standard" version of the box.  Hope this helps.  I can alter them in various ways though in order to better meet your needs/desires.

Max,

I thought those matched or raised the impedance.

You are quite correct... the Speltz box does exactly that and it uses a transformer to do so.  No such device is in the BLACK BOX.  Not that transformers are bad per se, but at speaker current levels they are big and must use ferrous cores - with their potential saturation, hysteresis and other non-linearities at risk.  We don't want such things in the path to alter the pristine signal coming from our amplifier. 

-Bob

[Goosepond]

Gene,

Now if he can just get my TP 3.0's outta the way, he'll have a lot more time for the BB's.

Good news!  aa  You might want to start thinking of getting those Minis packed up. 

 

 

[bhobba]

As far as effectiveness compared to the competition goes... we tried the "best" version they had to offer on our own SP Tech speakers.  Back and forth... with/without several times... couldn't hear a bit of difference.  That totally dumbfounded their owner too.  The BLACK BOX on the same test?  Immediate night and day difference.    And to think..."ours" cost less than 1/10th the price of "theirs."  aa

Now that's the type of thing that should convince skeptics.  Thanks for the skinny Bob.  Sure beats what they charge for inserting 'voodo' stuff like Bybees.  If a product does work then it should be clearly audible - which it obviously is.  Of course that is not to slight bybees, its just that the 'better' products usually do not have that type of controversy ie some people claiming they make a big difference and others claiming they can hear nothing.

Just a quick question for Bob.  Does he find the device makes a system less cable dependant ie when using the device does he find that expensive cables don't give much of a benefit?  Or is it an accumulative type thing - it makes better cables sound better again?  Bob has more or less convinced me to get one when I take delivery of my speakers.

Thanks
Bill

[zybar]

Guys,

How about waiting to hear the Black Box before making such strong statements? 

I know people are excited that Bob has resurfaced and is offering a new product, but before the Black Box is proclaimed a success, how about we get a few units out into the field and have some comments from users, not just the vendor?

BTW, if anybody can produce something like the Black Box and make it really work, I do think Bob can.  So please, let's not take my comments as something negative against Bob.

George

[bhobba]

How about waiting to hear the Black Box before making such strong statements? 

Sure.  Its just that Bob has proved to me and those that frequent his forum he really knows his stuff.  That's one reason I have made a down payment on getting one of his speakers (the mini) without hearing them.  I just cant take delivery right now due to money issues.  If he says a difference is clearly audible, and a worthwhile improvement I, and I suspect others that post here as as well, will believe him with out independent confirmation.  Yes independent blind listening tests would be worthwhile, exactly as I said in one of my posts, but for me it will just confirm what Bob and the people he demoed it with have found.  That's good enough for me to say once my monetary issues are abated I will get two when I finally get my minis.

Thanks
Bill

[targa]

good fellows, i have the black box from Bob.  i have been too busy to give them a good listen.  will do this weekend.  however, this is what i can tell you based on my limited testing/listening... 

i am sure that you all know and have plenty of experience with what good power conditioning can do to your system, right?  i have a very good Transparent Audio (retails $2K) power conditioning unit...  i immediately heard the improvements when i started using this power conditioning unit (and has been in my main system for over a year)...  well, using the black box improves the sound quality by a factor of 5(!) when compared to the improvements made by power conditioning... 

what improvements, exactly?  well...  much smoother sound, better clarity and separation of voices, more depth of soundstage, better micro dynamics...  improvement is easily audible and simply addictive...  can't go back now! 

more to come.  i will explain the details...

[konut]

I had the pleasure of speaking with Bob yesterday. Whenever I speak with Bob regarding technical matters, I know I will receive a thoroughly enjoyable tutorial explaining his investigation of solving problems with regard to whatever electrical interface is under investigation. I've really missed that since I received my Minis. Since my Minis took so long to be delivered, I had an excuse to call once a month to receive my tutorial. It was great to get my 'tutorial' about the black box yesterday! With Bob's announcement,  I had thought that Bob had just found a way to package his unique cabling scheme in a more affordable, convenient package. The Smith cell, however, is an additional circuit that Bob terms a way to remove "undesirable artifacts". Bob trusts me with the details because he knows I am discrete. Without giving too much away, I would call it a noise sink. Since my system is extremely quiet to begin with, I am anxious to hear exactly how it will affect my system. Needless to say I'm looking forward to receiving my pair, and reporting my impressions.

[Christof]

I had the pleasure of speaking with Bob yesterday. Whenever I speak with Bob regarding technical matters, I know I will receive a thoroughly enjoyable tutorial explaining his investigation of solving problems with regard to whatever electrical interface is under investigation.

You are one step ahead of me, whenever I stop by Bob's place I always end up leaving scratching my head...somehow I manage to follow what he is saying when I'm listening to him but as soon as I leave I ask myself WTF just happened....what were we talking about and how the hell did we get there?  Bob's mind works like John McLaughlin's finger  

[bhobba]

Whenever I speak with Bob regarding technical matters, I know I will receive a thoroughly enjoyable tutorial explaining his investigation of solving problems with regard to whatever electrical interface is under investigation.

I think that is one reason Bob has such a loyal following that regularly posts here.  I have mentioned before that these days I believe you are better off forming a relationship with a specialist manufacturer like Bob than someone at your local Hi Fi sore.  Their (justified) markups mean you pay much more for probably lower quality stuff than you can get from someone like Bob.  His investigations into speaker cables is just one example.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

You are one step ahead of me, whenever I stop by Bob's place I always end up leaving scratching my head...somehow I manage to follow what he is saying when I'm listening to him but as soon as I leave I ask myself WTF just happened....what were we talking about and how the hell did we get there?  Bob's mind works like John McLaughlin's finger  

Actually that's a common occurrence with people that really know their stuff.  It happened a lot with the great physicist Feynman.  You would attend one of his lectures and come away thoroughly satisfied he explained everything brilliantly and lucidly.  Then later when you reviewed it was not quite so clear.  Feynman was a 'magician':
"There are two kinds of geniuses: the 'ordinary' and the 'magicians'. An ordinary genius is a fellow whom you and I would be just as good as, if we were only many times better. There is no mystery as to how his mind works. Once we understand what they've done, we feel certain that we, too, could have done it. It is different with the magicians. Even after we understand what they have done it is completely dark. Richard Feynman is a magician of the highest calibre." - Mark Kac

Maybe Bob is one as well?

Thanks
Bill

[targa]

had a chance to listen to the Black Boxes (BB) in depth.  Want to provide some feedback after hours of listening and testing.  I will describe the changes I heard with the following dimensions:  1. detail retrieval, 2. air between the voices (separation), 3. grain level (or lack thereof), and 4. body of the voices.  I did not expect changes in tonality (warmer, cooler etc) and I did not hear changes in tonality.  Each black box has 4 setting (0 – 3).  The changes are described as incremental from one setting to the next.  I used a Shirley Horn DC for this test because of the good recording quality.  Here is a summary of my oberservation.


Setting 0 (when compared to no BB in the system):

1. detail retrieval:  i heard a jump in low level detail retrieval.  background noise dropped
2. air between the voices (separation):  also heard better separation of voices
3. grain level:  heard a little more smoother sound
4. body of the voices:  heard some improvements in upper and lower base.  baseline got a bit fuller.  this made the overall sound fuller

taken the changes altogether, I clearly heard improvement in the soundstage.  like when you put a very good power conditioner in the system.  I would say that the sound quality has improved around 5%.  Not too drastic but audible and very pleasant.  This is the same effect as my Transparent Audio power conditioner.  Now, I want to be clear that BB is not a replacement for power conditioning but an improvement on top of good power conditioning.  Each piece of equipment has its own function.  However, some can make a more significant impact than others….


Setting 1 (when compared to BB setting 0):

1. detail retrieval:  finer details improved much more.   
2. air between the voices (separation):  heard significantly better separation of voices.  Much better than setting 0
3. grain level:  the level of grain also dropped.  the singer voice was much smoother.  same applied for all voices but the improved smoothness in human voice was more recognizable (at least, to me)
4. body of the voices:  the voices became fuller.  i heard much rounder notes.  this area also improved significantly

taken together, the sound was more pleasant: smooth and full.  seemed like the overall accuracy (probably due to drop in distortion) improved in terms of voices, positioning of voices on the soundstage.  also, the soundstage got a bit wider but noticeably much deeper.  the improvement was more drastic than setting 0.  the separation of voice, the amount of air between voices was outstanding.  i could hear individual notes much better…  simply phenomenal.  i would say the improvements were in the 15% range over setting 0 and across all areas.

Setting 2 and 3 showed incremental improvements but the improvement were not as drastic as 0 to 1.   the improvements with 2 and 3 were, however, also across all dimensions.  I would guess that 2 improved 5% over 1 and 3 improved 5% over 2. 

to put this some perspective about the improvements from setting 0 to 1 (or 0 to 2/3 for that matter):  i recently bought a MHDT Havana DAC.  affordable and pretty well reviewed DAC.  i A/B tested to this DAC for 3 to 4 days (w/ 2-3 hours each day) before I could concluded the improvements over my modded player.  the BB made a more significant impact to the overall sound than the DAC and probably by a factor of 2 or 3.  when I used the BB, the heard the improvements immediately.  however, the reason why i compared the BB setting 1/2/3 to the DAC is because of the improved smooth sound brought about by the DAC. 

now, I would not say the BB (a lot cheaper than the DAC) can replace the DAC simply because each component has its own function in the system.  what I can definitely say is that the BB amplifies the equality of the DAC by a factor of 2 or 3.  in short, BB are phenomenal products….

note that I also have picked the Timepiece Mini (used in second system) in addition to my Timepiece 3.0.  I tested the BB with all my speakers (+ another sets, non SP Tech) and the improvements were consistent across all speakers.  I also tested the BB with 3 different Amps (Linar Audio 10, CA 840A and Lite amplifier..  all modded and tweaked).  The improvements in sound quality appear to be more significant with the cheaper amp than the more expensive/ better one. 

the detailed observation I described above was with my Linar Audio 10.  I would say that the BB used with Linar showed around 25% improvement in overall sound.  With CA 840A, around 30% and with the Lite amplifier (just use this to drive my rear speakers when watching movies) probably 40%(!)

given all being equal, the BB demonstrated to significantly improve the sound of my system.  using the BB was like I upgraded my amplifiers to a much more expensive amp or a much more expensive source.  taking the $ investment into consideration, the BB would definitely be the best investment to my system.  if budget is constraint, BB is still a MUST HAVE.  I have auditioned many speaker cables (with some costing 3 to 4 times the BB), and the best improvement I heard at times was like about 5%...

btw, I will bring the BB and my Timepiece Mini  speakers to a session - on May 16 - that Jim and Fred here in Houston are organizing…  if you are local or close, you are more than welcome to join…

[konut]

Thanks, targa, for the detailed post on your impressions of the BB!  I would like to suggest, with all due respect, the following.

1. Position 3 is recommended by Bob for SS amps. It would be interesting to note the differences heard at the meet if your are to hook up tube amps to the BB using the positions recommended, by Bob, in post 1 of this thread.

2. In your next listening session, if you could, select program material with an emphasis on high frequency content. This is where the non-cell portion of the BB is supposed to affect the quality of playback the most, as Bob explained it to me. While some might protest that by suggesting this I am predisposing to you a form of expectation  bias, and that might be true, it is also true that sometimes it is also useful to know just what to listen for when listening for differences.

[JP78]

hello bob,

best of luck with the new product line. i do have some suggestions for this one:

edit: corrected by ted

3.  a rackmount location variation for multichannel, so you can always provide multiple channels in a single rackmount enclosure.  similar to above, you can include leads to go to the customers amplifier (length specified when customer orders) to make this ideal for multichannel setups as well as bi-amp and tri-amp configurations.

well, just food for thought. best of luck.

[ted_b]

JP78, no offense but have you read about the BB?  Read Bob's announcement over one more time and you'll see he does not need to decide what this product is.  Your no. 2 is already decided.  Bob speaks to it in his announcement, and specifically to your issues already in this thread

the standard boxes will come with some Velcro to use for support if forced to hang from the back (i.e., monitors or posts up high on the back of an enclosure).

Rack mount?  This is a speaker box that goes, with most conventional speakers, at the speaker binding posts.  It could hang off the back of the speaker with velcro, if needed.  In my scenario it will sit between the amp and the SP Tech Mundorf crossovers (as they are considered aprt of the speaker compliment).

I'm, not sure where you got that this might be anywhere near a rack mount tweak...    not so. 

[opnly bafld]

hello bob,

best of luck with the new product line. i do have some suggestions for this one:

1. you may want to decide if this is a rackmount located tweak or a speaker located tweak. as of right now it sort of sits in the middle of no man's land. for single channel, i'd recommend located by speaker. for multi-channel, i'd recommend making a rackmount located solution.

2. if it's a tweak located by the speaker, it may be best to keep the external box/packaging as small and low-mass as possible.  that way it can be attached to the backside of the speaker (via double sided tape, velcro, etc) in a way that is convenient and non-obtrusive. also, if the tweak is speaker-level you could include your own hardwire jumper leads for the customer to plug directly into the back of the speaker (and obviously update the price to reflect the additional work).

3. for the rackmount location variation, you can always provide multiple channels in a single rackmount enclosure.  similar to above, you can include leads to go to the customers amplifier (length specified when customer orders) to make this ideal for multichannel setups as well as bi-amp and tri-amp configurations.

4. in my experience, audiophiles are more willing to put a component on their rack than to place boxes on the floor or attach them to speakers.  also with the custom hardwired leads to an amplifier audiophiles are more likely to want the product since they will only need to purchase one pair of fancy speaker wires.

well, just food for thought. best of luck.

I was going to quote Bob's description of and comments about the black box in response to your points, but it would be much easier for me if you would read (or reread) the first page of this thread. 

Lin

Edit: Ted beat me to it.

[targa]

konut, good suggestions...  honestly, i also listened to 1st, early prototype of the BB for 4-6 weeks now...  i still have them in my system.  i did not hear any negative impacts on the high frequencies...

the new version as you see the pictures from Bob is better/improved and i also understand the interworkings of the device quite well...  let me put it this way:  very, very well actually...  but i let all explanations to Bob since this is his proprietary design

am sure all suggestions provided are to help Bob perfecting his design...  excellent products!!!  simply brillant...

[ted_b]

Lance,
Knowing what you know about SP Tech, and what you know about my Revs....what would you think the BB would do to my system?  Note:  I have one issue that Bob is working on; my speaker cables are "remote sense" versions that monitor the back EMF from the Spectron amps.  This feedback loop is something Bob is working though as he readies my set.  It's possible the Smith Cell portion will be the most effective (as it should be), with the "remaining"  portion less so (since that's some of what the remote sense addresses anyway).

[targa]

Ted, my friend... you have top notch equipments and in general it is always harder to improve something that is top notch already... 

in regard to your question, i see that you already answer that question yourself...  you and i talked about this BB concept before...  i think you hit the nail on the head...  but the best is to test out the BB once they come your way...  i can see that you are in continuous pursuit of perfection in music reproduction...  sounds good to me...