Budget DAC for my system, < 200$

raymondbeautrix · « **on:** 16 Apr 2009, 11:15 pm »

Hello everyone,

As you can see, I'm looking into a system with a far tighter budget than most around here. I have a fairly modest system as well. It is as follows:

m-audio BX5a deluxe studio monitors (bi-amped 70w, built in)
Audigy 2 ZS

I am told that adding in a dedicated DAC could bring up my SQ several levels. If you think I'll be compromising quality too greatly going sub-$200, I could possible save up more and go higher.

I'm looking at some of the following DACs

y1 gamma-1 built by misterx
TC-7510
Styleaudio Emerald
m-audio 2496

I've been told that running SPDIF output from my audigy card would be more ideal than using USB from a DAC, but please let me know if this isn't the case. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Ray

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 11:36 pm »

I've used Dakiom's to make nearly unlistenable CD/DVD players tolearble...and good CD/DVD players quite good.

It's right in your price range (US$218.00/pair) and they do work (assuming you don't have tube outputs on your player). They replace your interconnects instead of forcing you to buy another digital cable (at additional cost on your limited budget)

When you get beyond the odd rants and ramblings of company owner Dr. Dao, these fella's really do work

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablintr&1244223905&/Dakiom-Mr273--The-Best-of-Best

John

whubbard · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 11:42 pm »

Hi Ray,
In my 'Budget' PC system I use the Zero DAC. You have to get it off Ebay, but it's worth it, and you'll find some pretty rave reviews around. I use the SPDIF out. It comes with a USB converter, but I am under the belief it is better to use the SPDIF out. If you use the USB output your just sending it through more components to achieve supposedly the same results. If the USB does a good job converting, then you have the same things as just using the SPDIF, therefore, just use the SPDIF. I really hope that makes sense...

I also should add it has a pretty decent headphone amplifier which is fairly key for any PC system IMHO. I very very much prefer the sound out of the Zero DAC headphone output vs. the computer headphone output.

Here is the link:
Zero DAC

I'm actually listening to it right now, it's truly a great budget DAC. There are also a lot of cheap DIY mods out there if you want to take it to the next lever, and they aren't very expensive to impliment. Personally I'm happy with the way it sounds 'stock'.

With shipping it will be right within your budget, so I would seriously consider buying this DAC if I were you!

-West

Doublej · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 12:53 am »

Perhaps a Nuforce Mobile at $99 MSRP would meet your needs.

http://www.nuforce-icon.com/Product-Icon-Mobile.htm

raymondbeautrix · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 01:00 am »

So...I suppose my real challenge certainly isn't lack of options, but a lack of means to narrow it down to one. Does anyone have experience with multiple DACs I have listed here? If I could start crossing ones off that are inferior to another, that would be a great help.

I should point out that having a headphone amp and a volume nob would be convenient for me, but my main goal is getting the best possible DAC for the money -- if that best dac is without these things, then I'm fine with that.

Thanks again for all the help guys.

whubbard · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 01:30 am »

Quote from: raymondbeautrix on 17 Apr 2009, 01:00 am

I should point out that having a headphone amp and a volume nob would be convenient for me, but my main goal is getting the best possible DAC for the money -- if that best dac is without these things, then I'm fine with that.

Zero DAC... [It's really (IMHO) the perfect fit]

Quote from: raymondbeautrix on 17 Apr 2009, 01:00 am

Does anyone have experience with multiple DACs I have listed here?

I can say the M-Audio 2496 doesn't even come close to the Zero. The others, I have no idea.

-West

satfrat · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 02:25 am »

Quote from: raymondbeautrix on 17 Apr 2009, 01:00 am

So...I suppose my real challenge certainly isn't lack of options, but a lack of means to narrow it down to one. Does anyone have experience with multiple DACs I have listed here? If I could start crossing ones off that are inferior to another, that would be a great help.

I should point out that having a headphone amp and a volume nob would be convenient for me, but my main goal is getting the best possible DAC for the money -- if that best dac is without these things, then I'm fine with that.

Thanks again for all the help guys.

You never mentioned what you have for a computer system, Windows, Mac,?? If you're using a Windows XP, you'll need a sound card and an audio player that accepts Asioforall if you really want quality audio from a sound card or a USB/DAC.

Cheers,
Robin

raymondbeautrix · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 02:32 am »

Using XP now. I didn't realize that limited me. No work around? I just assumed since i have SPDIF out on my audigy 2, I could just use that.

If it's really necessary, I could upgrade to vista if that made things more practical. So, I suppose the answer is: I can be flexible.

satfrat · « **Reply #8 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 02:47 am »

Quote from: raymondbeautrix on 17 Apr 2009, 02:32 am

Using XP now. I didn't realize that limited me. No work around? I just assumed since i have SPDIF out on my audigy 2, I could just use that.

If it's really necessary, I could upgrade to vista if that made things more practical. So, I suppose the answer is: I can be flexible.

Asioforall.com is your workaround for XP but upgrading to Vista solves the issue. I use Asioforall with a J. River player for excellent audio but when I was using my sound card I didn't know about Asioforall and was using DFX Audio Enhancer to raise the fidelity of the audio. I really wish I had known about Asioforall and the reason why it's needed for Windows XP. Have you picked an audio player yet?

Cheers,
Robin

raymondbeautrix · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 03:41 am »

So asio drivers would be if I were to use a USB dac in windows xp, but I'd also have to use a supported audio player? That would mean that normal OS sounds or game/video sounds wouldn't work? I suppose I don't fully follow.

Here's an option I'm carefully looking at. It's a DIY project, but I can pay either 80$ for a USB-only dac, or 180$ to have optical/SPDIF as well. Here's a major difference they listed, at least in the case of this system:

-The maximum S/PDIF resolution and sampling rate is limited to 24-bit 96KHz for best digital filter response.
-The maximum USB resolution and sampling rate is 16-bit 48KHz.

Would the 16bit, 48KHz affect normal listening in any way? My source is typically flac which at most is 44khz, or mp3 which I assume is no more. My guess is those higher settings only affect a professional mixer/recorder but I'm not sure.

Here's a link to the site http://www.amb.org/audio/gamma1/

If anyone could help look through this and make some helpful observations that would be great. I've seen a few claims that it's considerably better than the zero dac.

satfrat · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 03:57 am »

Quote from: raymondbeautrix on 17 Apr 2009, 03:41 am

So asio drivers would be if I were to use a USB dac in windows xp, but I'd also have to use a supported audio player? That would mean that normal OS sounds or game/video sounds wouldn't work? I suppose I don't fully follow.

You will want to use Asioforall regardless for wheather you use your sound card or USB/DAC. It's a Windows XP issue that Asio addresses, not how you're implementing computer audio. Asio will not affect video games. Try doing a search on AudioCircle for Asio or asioforall. There's a lot of good info already here on the subject, it would be worth your time to read up on the subject before embarking on the computer audio journey. You might also want to go through thread on The Discless Circle which really deals on the subject of implementing music servers and the issues surrounding this.

Cheers,
Robin

whubbard · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 04:23 am »

Robin is right about the WinXP internal sound drivers being fairly bad.

In terms of SPDIF vs. USB, Robin, your a bit off. They are both digital signals. They are just in a different encoding process. The USB inside the computer will be just as susceptible to the same interference. If there really is severe interference in the computer, it would actually worse to have USB as the converted signal would be even more screwed up.

SPDIF/USB its all digital!

Which is exactly what I was trying to describe earlier. The USB to SPDIF should be lossless inside the computer. The USB and SPDIF outputs are indenticle, and therefore, there is no reason to feed them through another conversion.

Does that makes sense?

-West

bunnyma357 · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 04:34 am »

+1 for the Zero Dac, I've got one and have been very happy.

Jim C

raymondbeautrix · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 06:19 am »

I could consider something that expensive only if I was sure I'd get an extra 200$ worth of SQ. I really want to emphasize that the headphone amp, while it would be great, is moot compared to getting the best bang/buck DAC. If it happens to be the best of both worlds, then awesome

.

Can we get anymore consensus on the USB vs. SPDIF? Can we at least say that they are, for all intents and purposes, the same listener-level audio quality? USB at least seems to be the simplest option since you can buypass your soundcard.

I'm going to ask some of the "y1gamma1" crowd about what they think about the zero dac.

Satfrat: I don't suppose there's a way I could drop a message to Nugent, eh?

I'm going to look further into the asio driver thing, but I think it's making more sense now.

Thanks again for everyone's help. I think I getting closer to finding an answer, but at the very least it's been an excellent learning experience so far.

Rashiki · « **Reply #14 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 06:20 am »

CryoParts also sells the Super Pro 707 DAC for around $120. http://www.cryo-parts.com/usb_dac.html Also available on ebay and from several other sources.

I picked one up a while ago and I think it sounds pretty good, especially for the price. I wish the USB input supported high-res formats, but so few DACs support anything above 16 bits @ 48kHz.

It comes with a cheap switching power supply as well as a cable to use a 12V battery. I plan to try the battery supply and/or a better linear power supply.

-Rob

raymondbeautrix · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 06:27 am »

Rashiki: that's a neat idea, I didn't notice that one on their site. I don't see any listing on ebay for that, at least now.

Having the USB input only up to 16bit @ 48khz...does that affect the real-world soundquality for the listener at all? Or is it something slight and hardly discernible?

wilsynet · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 08:43 am »

VALAB DAC, sold on EBay, $200 including shipping. Has a bit of a cult following on Head-Fi.org right now. Steve Nugent says that replacing some caps and add a low jitter transport like his Pace Car and it's world class.

whubbard · « **Reply #17 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 01:07 pm »

I'm going to steer this back on topic. Robin, we can discuss this elsewhere.

Ray,
I have heard a bunch of Budget DACs. I have also compared USB vs. SPDIF vs. TosLink on a lot of DACs (no $3000 DACs, but good ones), and I really haven't noticed a difference. I just think SPDIF is the easiest. Essentially, it will not mater for you in terms of sound, so pick whatever DAC you prefer.

For a complete DAC (I DIY a lot), under $200, I just don't think you can go wrong with the Zero.

-West

raymondbeautrix · « **Reply #18 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 02:16 pm »

Does anyone know Steve or Lee's forum name, so I could drop them a message to have them post on this thread?

If we bring in the experts, we can confirm who's right

. Of course, I know this isn't a competition. All the suggestions are really appreciated and it just goes to show I have a lot more to learn before I can make an informed decision.

cryoparts · « **Reply #19 on:** 17 Apr 2009, 04:50 pm »

Quote from: Rashiki on 17 Apr 2009, 06:20 am

CryoParts also sells the Super Pro 707 DAC for around $120. http://www.cryo-parts.com/usb_dac.html Also available on ebay and from several other sources.

I picked one up a while ago and I think it sounds pretty good, especially for the price. I wish the USB input supported high-res formats, but so few DACs support anything above 16 bits @ 48kHz.

It comes with a cheap switching power supply as well as a cable to use a 12V battery. I plan to try the battery supply and/or a better linear power supply.

-Rob

Hi Rob,

24/96 over USB is tough right now. The two most common ways: Manufacturer licenses the CEntrance code (Bel Canto, Empirical, many others), which is a great solution, but expensive, so probably won't see this in inexpensive products any time soon. Write their own code (Wavelength, Ayre uses Wavelength's code, some pro stuff).

There is another way, however, it is not released yet and I am under an NDA so I can't say a lot. Announcement will be made soon (before Can Jam). But, even this method may not filter down to the really inexpensive, entry level products.

FYI--the USB DAC you talk about above sound a lot better with a battery, try it soon.

Peace,

Lee