[Niteshade]

This doesn't have to be a technical discussion. Just record a good, high quality record on to a CD. Listen to the CD recording and see if anything is missing. Has anybody tried this?

[Browntrout]

Yes I did this several times and sent out copies so people could hear a phonostage I had modified. You can hear the digital effect upon the analogue, it sounds half way between a record and a cd. It's more like something has been added.

[*Scotty*]

Blair,the only problem I can see with this idea is the quality of ADC available to the man on the street may be inadequate to reveal the kind of differences you are interested in.
Michael Fremer has made digital copies of recordings of the same piece played back with different phono cartridges and considers his resulting recordings good enough that he can use   
them as a aural reference to characterize to performance of the cartridges after he no longer has them available to refer to. At least for Mr. Fremer the question of transparency and faithfulness to the source has been answered. I won't dwell on the logical inconsistencies his actions appear to embody.
Scotty

[TheChairGuy]

You can hear the digital effect upon the analogue, it sounds half way between a record and a cd. It's more like something has been added.

...I've heard a couple too...but, to me, it sounded like something was taken away and or altered (slightly) adversely at 16/44.1.

24/96, or 24/96 with MLP (ie, DVD-A) might prove a better/closer comparison, tho

John

[Bob in St. Louis]

XRCD

[Mag]

This doesn't have to be a technical discussion. Just record a good, high quality record on to a CD. Listen to the CD recording and see if anything is missing. Has anybody tried this?

I've transferred a few LP recordings to cd. I wouldn't say they were high quality, from mid-fi equipment. To me the transfers sound just like it did on the TT with the clicks & pops, nothing spectacular about listening to vinyl. For this reason I abandoned vinyl for the cd some 20 years ago.

Now I never heard vinyl played on a high quality TT with cartridge. If I had perhaps I would not have abandoned vinyl. However if the same amount of money invested into a TT with cartridge necessary to hear the merits of vinyl over cd is invested into dedicated cd player. Would the cd not still be just as good or superior to vinyl?

The stereo system I have now with cd,dvd digital playback is vastly superior to the vinyl tube stereo I listened to in my teens. Perhaps it could be even better if I invest in a quality TT.  But in my mind vinyl is obsolete and I would have to hear someones hi quality vinyl rig to be convinced otherwise.

[LostInPA]

I agree that vinyl is obsolete.   More importantly, most music by living musicians/composers is available only on CD.   My personal point of view: Why would anyone waste their time listening to yet another only slightly different performance of their grandparents' music?   Are you afraid to listen to new music because you might actually be required to form an opinion all on your own, independent of the opinions of others?   

A significant problem with CD playback is that almost all currently new players use from  a very limited number of available DAC chips, the vast majority of which are called 1-bit and Sigma/Delta.   Comparisons among these players is about power supplies, filters (digital and/or analog), operating conveniences, etc., not a comparison of D to A function.   Some small manufacturers do go back to earlier chips,  NOS, that use chips of an earlier type, dropped by most manufacturers because of, what else, price considerations.     A major difference is available from www.msbtech.com.     I will not summarize here that which you can read in it's entirety on their website.   I had aquired one of their older products a few years ago, a Gold Link DAC.   Back then, they were still using Burr Brown Chips.    To test the unit, I used the digital output from a Meridian 588 CD player.   Long story short, the MSB, for a few hundred dollars preowned, far outclassed the DAC section of the Meridian, a player that cost a few thousand dollars new.     Their current Platinum DAC III uses all MSB chips.   This is an excellent unit in stock configuration.   Add the Signature Digital Filter, and their newest input board option (8X upsampling from a front panel switch select;  24/96 USB input available as an option with this board) and you have a D to A converter that is in a far different category from the majority.   Sure, it is expensive, yet not as expensive as some vinyl playback configurations.   I find that this unit exceeds the one-box from EMM Labs, at about the same price, and also exceeds the EMM Labs 2-box unit, at about twice the price..   The level of resolution from the MSB is striking, and loud passages do not constrict or overload.     Find a willing dealer, or a fortunate owner, and listen.

[ecramer]

I agree that vinyl is obsolete.   More importantly, most music by living musicians/composers is available only on CD.   My personal point of view: Why would anyone waste their time listening to yet another only slightly different performance of their grandparents' music?   Are you afraid to listen to new music because you might actually be required to form an opinion all on your own, independent of the opinions of others?   

What the talking about grandparents' music. I have Sleater kinney, Gossip, Fever Ray, Barry Adamson, GSYBE,    lots of new  artist on new vinyl think your blowing smoke with that statement

[TheChairGuy]

The level of resolution from the MSB is striking, and loud passages do not constrict or overload.     Find a willing dealer, or a fortunate owner, and listen.

Unlike my experience with the unit.

I owned the MSB Gold Link DAC III...with every conceivable mod at the time from the strikingly talented Steve Nugent at Empirical Audio.  In front of it was a fully modded Sony DVP-S7700...Steve's preferred dedicated player at the time (2002 or so).  Every conceivable configuration of digital IC was tried (at every price point and from glass toslink to rca) and even added a Revelation Audio Labs (custom) umbilical and footers.

No sleight to Steve Nugent...but, that was $4500 down the tubes and was my most miserable 3+ years of my musical listening life (I ditched vinyl for it).  Let me corect that - $3300 down the tubes as I sold it to a happy audiophile nearby (who loved it last I heard in 2007, so be it)

I happily replaced it with a $59 COBY CD player, with outboard 12v power supply from Radio Shack.  I now have a Cambridge DVD99 with Dakiom interconnects, and an isolation transformer separating digital poison from the rest of my system.  Both cheap setups far excelled the pricey MSB setup in naturalness and reality....for a few hundred invested only.

With the Cambridge, I now have access to truly good DVD-A recordings (and SACD, but that format hasn't thrilled me)

Vinyl is the only format that re-creates the original event - that of LIVE.  All the digital technologies are second rate at that and excel mostly due to convenience.  The more one listens to classical and (non-acid) jazz, the more one realizes the superiority of vinyl.  That said, CD/Redbook players are near universally good the past 5 years and are available at great prices.

But, the MSB circa 2000? Not worth the bother even for the cheap prices they sell for today

Try a good, basic uncomplicated vinyl setup and I suspect you'll return here as 'FoundinPA'

John

[doug s.]

...Now I never heard vinyl played on a high quality TT with cartridge. If I had perhaps I would not have abandoned vinyl. However if the same amount of money invested into a TT with cartridge necessary to hear the merits of vinyl over cd is invested into dedicated cd player. Would the cd not still be just as good or superior to vinyl? ...

my experience has been that, once you get up to ~$500 (buying used), that is when winyl gear starts become as or more cost-effective than digital gear.  that's imo, of course...

ymmv,

doug s.

[LostInPA]

I have had vinyl playback systems, inexpensive and expensive, for the 1,600 LP's that I eventually had.   I finally tired of the limitations caused by the "analog dither" of surface noise.   Yes, it is always there, even on new copies of well pressed discs.  Unlike LP, CD has an extremely low noise floor and wide dynamic range.    I have seen pictures of oscilloscope traces that show high frequency content above 20 kHz from LP's, above the brick wall limitation of CD's.   Big deal.   These higher frequencies are not audible, although some say that they do make a difference (unspecified), and but a very few playings of an LP will effectively wipe out this information.   Certainly a compelling argument for CD:  LP is a medium that deteriorates with each playing.

[Browntrout]

It sounds better though doesn't it?

[doug s.]

I have had vinyl playback systems, inexpensive and expensive, for the 1,600 LP's that I eventually had.   I finally tired of the limitations caused by the "analog dither" of surface noise.   Yes, it is always there, even on new copies of well pressed discs.  Unlike LP, CD has an extremely low noise floor and wide dynamic range.    I have seen pictures of oscilloscope traces that show high frequency content above 20 kHz from LP's, above the brick wall limitation of CD's.   Big deal.   These higher frequencies are not audible, although some say that they do make a difference (unspecified), and but a very few playings of an LP will effectively wipe out this information.   Certainly a compelling argument for CD:  LP is a medium that deteriorates with each playing.

many people prefer winyl w/its limitations; you prefer cd w/its limitations ; that's cool...  both formats are not perfect.

dynamic range has more to do w/the recording process than the format itself.  i have heard dynamic winyl and compressed cd's, and wice-wersa...

i have many records i got in the 70's that have not deteriorated at all...

ymmv,

doug s.

[Scottdazzle]

...Certainly a compelling argument for CD:  LP is a medium that deteriorates with each playing.

I have records that are 40 years old that sound new.  If they are cleaned with each play, played on properly adjusted players with good styli, not played repeatedly, and stored properly (upright in a clean inner sleeve away from heat) they can last forever.  Like Doug S, I think they break-even point for vinyl superiority is around $500. Cheers!

[Bob in St. Louis]

and wice-wersa...

  I'm sorry, I just can't let that one go. That's the funniest thing I've seen all day. Thanks man! 

ymmv,

doug s.

Umm...shouldn't that be "ymmw" instead? 

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Back to your regularly scheduled programming fellas.

Bob

[TheChairGuy]

Certainly a compelling argument for CD:  LP is a medium that deteriorates with each playing.

My stylus is treated with LAST Stylast - which retards wear by 10x on the stylus.  As well, every record thoroughly cleaned is treated with LAST Record Preservative...which treats the 200th play like the 1st.  Zero wear for 100's of plays.

http://www.lastfactory.com/Products/record_preservative.html

So, both stylus and record itself are barely degraded by repeated plays.

The topic asks if there are folks that prefer CD sonically...the actual respondents that do have been few and far between.  Most that have responded affirmatively to CD superiority...seem to slip in the convenience aspect (as you have). 

There really is zero argument on the convenient aspect...it's a given....but for music, vinyl has no equal among digital formats. I only wish a digital format sounded as good as vinyl done right - I am no fan of the pain, but I worship the music above all.

Don't know about tomorrow, but today that it's abundantly true that vinyl reigns supreme

Like doug s. and scotthobby...$500 is about the right point at which additional money spent on digital benefits much I've found.  I've got $550 invested in mine ($299 Cambridge DVD99, a pair of Dakiom Feedback Stabilizers $218 and a dedicated isolation transformer) and I'm damn happier with my digital set-up than I EVER thought I would be.  As well, scads happier than with the overpriced and unfailingly dishonest sounding MSB setup I had a few years ago.

The MSB setup did indeed sound BIG...but it never reminded me of the actual event - live 

John

[Bob in St. Louis]

One of the fellas on the Hawthorne site found > PROOF < that vinyl is better.

Note, the comments below the video. There's a fella named "jigibao". Might be on the second page of comment as it's getting pretty low on the list. Does that sound like anybody we know? 

Bob

[rajacat]

 

[nathanm]

Sounds like a British New Wave Band, eh.

[Mariusz]

One of the fellas on the Hawthorne site found > PROOF < that vinyl is better.

see ...... easy.