The Airing of the Grievances

James Tanner · « **on:** 10 Apr 2009, 10:02 pm »

Hi All,

I do not know if you are all familiar with the TV Show Seinfeld but one episode had the holiday "Festivus" and part of the celebration was to air out any issues that bugged you during the previous year ...... The Airing of the Grievances.

So this thread will allow just that. Tell me what bugs you the most about the audio/video industry. Please keep comments generic and no personal or company attacks.

James

James Tanner · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Apr 2009, 10:04 pm »

I'll start.

I can not figure out why there are so many diverging opinions on "Best Sound at The Show"

james

Moon Doggy · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 Apr 2009, 11:20 pm »

The best case reporting or "fudging" of specs by a few manufacturers. Speaker sensitivity is one that I've experienced as being reported as higher than actual.

Phil A · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 Apr 2009, 11:32 pm »

1) ignorant sales people who down brands they don't carry and have never listened to.
2) ignorant consumers who can't listen for themselves and judge a brand by a 10 yr. old model
3) BS marketing hype vs. real merit

Lancelot · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 12:23 am »

Since everyone hears differently, has different sonic values and priorities ( bass extension, soundstaging etc. ) and is listening in an unfamiliar room ( at shows) , I would expect a difference of opionion as to "best of show".

My biggest concern is the seemingly increasing loss of any idea of value for money . The law of diminishing returns kicks in quite rapidly and yet reviewers and audio buffs like us use words like *major*, *couldn't believe the difference*,* discover my music collection all over again* to identify noticeable but often rather subtle changes.

Now where that line of very diminishing returns kicks in can be a very individual choice but I tend to think it's much lower than many of us want to admit.

danman · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 12:53 am »

I am also one that hates it when dealers put down makes they don't sell. I also don't like being treated like a half wit when going into some audio shops. I travel quite often and when I have some spare time I like to go look at audio stores. I have always made it clear that I am only in town on business and am just looking. I tell them this so I don't bother anyone but sometimes they don't seem to like me looking around or listening to what's playing.

I had my first experience with Bryston gear about 4 years ago at a shop in Montreal and at first they were nice to me until I told them I was not from there. Faces immediately changed and so did the attitude. I would of actually bought my gear from there if things would have been different I suppose and thank God I hooked up on this site and James or I would probably not have what I do now!

If any owners are reading this, be careful how you judge clients as they may be more serious than you think!

Moon Doggy · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 01:15 am »

Quote from: danman on 11 Apr 2009, 12:53 am

I am also one that hates it when dealers put down makes they don't sell. I also don't like being treated like a half wit when going into some audio shops.

My son had just bought some expensive speakers and went into another Hi-Fi store to purchase an amp and assorted gear to go with them. When he told the salesperson how much he liked his new speakers they started to put them down and tried to get him to return them and buy their brand. As a result he has never gone back there.

Danberg · « **Reply #7 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 01:54 am »

Being involved my entire career in sales I know of no good that can come from "knocking " others products. A professional salesperson will and should and will onlyexpress the positive merits their product offers. If the product they sell is truly better the customer will come to that realization upon hearing (no pun intended) it's virtues on their own.

I am very tired of the widely differing and subjective opinions regarding if cables / wire make, or do not make, sonic differences in systems. Let each individual discern that, after experimentation!

1ZIP · « **Reply #8 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 02:00 am »

I think the most irritating thing is to walk into a "High End" store and be met with a superior attitude and an unending stream of Audio techno babble that is delivered apparently to impress. As an engineer I find the technical aspects very interesting but my brain cannot translate technical and engineering data into sound. All I care about is what the electronics are doing to my ears, as someone said, " the sound must take me someplace". Many times that someplace has been out the door because the sales person can't seem to grasp the fact that I'm not impressed with the price tag nor the babble. The sound is the thing!

...and now I'll get off my soapbox and go home!

danman · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 02:20 am »

1ZIP can't agree more with you! I can't count the number of times I heard a dealer say "of course it sounds better, it costs way more than theirs!"

I have been to a few shows that had 100000$ plus stuff that sounded like crap to me!

danman · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 02:23 am »

James I think this thread is going to be a dealer bashing session! Let me express that this is not the mass only a few. In most cases, dealers I have been to are very good. Others should learn to leave their personalities at the door before going to work!

1ZIP · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 03:44 am »

I don't think bashing is the appropriate description. James asked for grievances and you would expect that many comments would arise from the most common source, that being personal interactions. There are some things about the industry that can be a little irritating but none can really tick you off like a bad encounter at a HiFi store. If the topic had been what's right with Audio/Video there would have been many posts about excellent interactions. There certainly is no shortage of very positive comments offered on this forum and with very good reason, Bryston and their dealers/sales folks know how to do right! I do have to agree that the negative interactions are not the norm but neither are they all that rare. Anyway, he has probably heard it all before!

werd · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 04:03 am »

Boo hoo

to all the people who are complaing about stuck-up hifi dealers. At least you have a hi-fi stores in which to complain about. I am not kidding where i live there is nothing for representation of any product out side of what you expect at box stores. This is my complaint, i cant go anywhere to demo gear. I have been into gear for about 30 years and the last 10 or so seriousily. Living in Saskatoon is disastrious for the hobby. The only way i find out what gear to buy is by my brief encounters in an out of province audio storesor by just out right purchasing it on audiogon or ebay. mistakes cost me tons of cash.

It bewilders me also of this reality. I read in financial journal (that i believe) how Saskatchewan is the richest place on earth. Tons of wealth here from agriculture to diamond mining, also potash, oil, and no less our beloved yellow cake. There is no point in singling out a particular manufacturer here because eversingle one of them is guilty. Shame on all you for this........

k back to my wine

cheers

Moon Doggy · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 07:33 am »

Quote from: 1ZIP on 11 Apr 2009, 03:44 am

I don't think bashing is the appropriate description. James asked for grievances and you would expect that many comments would arise from the most common source, that being personal interactions. There are some things about the industry that can be a little irritating but none can really tick you off like a bad encounter at a HiFi store. If the topic had been what's right with Audio/Video there would have been many posts about excellent interactions. There certainly is no shortage of very positive comments offered on this forum and with very good reason, Bryston and their dealers/sales folks know how to do right! I do have to agree that the negative interactions are not the norm but neither are they all that rare. Anyway, he has probably heard it all before!

The store I referred to usually has excellent customer service. They go out of their way to help. They get carried away with the superiority of their products. Problem is that the occasional arrogant remark putting down a customer's favourite brand can lose you a customer for life. Attacking my son's taste in speakers in like attacking his excitement about audio gear. Not a smart move when you are trying to sell hi end audio. A good salesperson caters to the customer's needs and in the long run it is far more profitable.

James Tanner · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 01:02 pm »

The person at the audio show that believes everything sounds like crap (except what he has at home of course)!

james

James Tanner · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 01:15 pm »

Quote from: Lancelot on 11 Apr 2009, 12:23 am

Since everyone hears differently, has different sonic values and priorities ( bass extension, soundstaging etc. ) and is listening in an unfamiliar room ( at shows) , I would expect a difference of opionion as to "best of show".

My biggest concern is the seemingly increasing loss of any idea of value for money . The law of diminishing returns kicks in quite rapidly and yet reviewers and audio buffs like us use words like *major*, *couldn't believe the difference*,* discover my music collection all over again* to identify noticeable but often rather subtle changes.

Now where that line of very diminishing returns kicks in can be a very individual choice but I tend to think it's much lower than many of us want to admit.

Hi Lancelot,

I agree a 'difference of opinion' is common based on ones' priorities but when you typically get the majority of people applauding at the end of a show demo and then read that 'this room had terrible sound' on a blog somewhere I think you have to start questioning the credibility or motives of said blog?

james

rahman · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 02:41 pm »

Quote from: werd on 11 Apr 2009, 04:03 am

Boo hoo to all the people who are complaing about stuck-up hifi dealers. At least you have a hi-fi stores in which to complain about. I am not kidding where i live there is nothing for representation of any product out side of what you expect at box stores. This is my complaint, i cant go anywhere to demo gear. I have been into gear for about 30 years and the last 10 or so seriousily. Living in Saskatoon is disastrious for the hobby. The only way i find out what gear to buy is by my brief encounters in an out of province audio storesor by just out right purchasing it on audiogon or ebay. mistakes cost me tons of cash.

what he said, but insert [Dublin] for [Saskatoon].

given the lack of local dealers who I can support/bug, I'm forced to acquire off the net and elsewhere etc. In this regard, I'm constantly dismayed by the attempts by mfrs to coerce dealers to enter into contracts, arrangements or understandings which limit the level of competition between their dealers, both on a national level (eg "recommended" prices which aren't really recommended) and on an international level (eg. no internet sales or in-store sales only - this applies even in the EU where there's supposedly a regime of free movement of goods). That said, I suspect in some cases dealers themselves want this regime to apply so as to limit price competition between them. But I guess all this that reflects my anti-trust background.

SF · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 04:32 pm »

ROOM ACOUSTICS

Invest so much in getting electronic gear that is flat as possible across the audible range with minimal distortion, put it in a room, optimize positioning etc, and still get huge dips and peaks, with ringing modes that muddy the bass, and reflections that reduce clarity. Of course, most acoustic treatments don't look nice and you are limited as to how much you can put in the room. It kills me to see that 20dB dip between 40-50 Hz, and I can't get rid of it. So there .... it even frustrates me to write about it.

The other grievance is dealers who assume a haughty tone of superiority with a dismissive attitude as their initial posture in some hifi stores that I have visited (I have also been to shops who are more than willing to impart as much of their knowledge regarding various equipment as I required even if I indicated that I was not buying on that day).

Moon Doggy · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 Apr 2009, 10:46 am »

Quote from: SF on 11 Apr 2009, 04:32 pm

ROOM ACOUSTICS
Invest so much in getting electronic gear that is flat as possible across the audible range with minimal distortion, put it in a room, optimize positioning etc, and still get huge dips and peaks, with ringing modes that muddy the bass, and reflections that reduce clarity. Of course, most acoustic treatments don't look nice and you are limited as to how much you can put in the room. It kills me to see that 20dB dip between 40-50 Hz, and I can't get rid of it. So there .... it even frustrates me to write about it.

Agreed. I recently moved my 2 channel system to the living room from a smaller dedicated room. I left the acoustic panels and bass traps behind. The room acoustics turned my expensive rig into cheap sounding junk. Looks be damned... the panels are back up and the big bass traps are in the corners of my living room. At least they are black and not bright orange.

And I roll the traps into the bedroom when guests are over.

mclsound · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 Apr 2009, 11:41 am »

what bugs me the most is trying to keep alot of my gear the same brand for synergy and the company completely kills your pocket book(eg. Sim Audio's new HT processor lists at $18,000).I see this price and say "we'll you don't want my business".
Bryston has always kept their prices in the same bracket(highend...28's now lunges them into ultra highend),and Classe was a bit of both(highend and ultra highend)
I mean you dont get people to build a system with your brand and then slap them with a price tag like that ,Classe and Bryston didn"t..........as you can see i like my canadian gear.
john