Narrowing speaker choices... the saga continues

Carlman · « **Reply #20 on:** 14 Dec 2003, 10:26 pm »

Roop, I agree that making assumptions is not the best way to go.. but, I haven't read anything glowing about the Avalon Symbols at all. So, I think it has as much to do with what I'm not reading as much as what I am. The Symbol's are a big unknown for me at this point. Also, my short list is growing out of control with the number of PM's I've received.

VMPS 626
Merlin TSM-M
Focus 688
Von Schweikert VR-2's
etc.
etc.

I'm amazed at the number of recommendations I've received and I genuinely appreciate it. The one thing I'm finding is that not many people have heard my speakers. They've heard about Revel's characteristics from others but, not first hand. So, it'll be good to have some second opinions when I organize a gathering in January for a 'speaker shootout' or whatever in January. I'll also have a preamp shootout between a Dodd, a Purist, and a secret contender whenever I get the Purist demo. There will be another thread for this stuff...

back to this topic....

I have auditioned the VMPS in another person's setup and was quite pleased with their reproduction quality. However, his setup was much different than mine so, imaging was completely different than I'm accustomed. He had a nearfield setup to immitate a sort of headphone environment... but, different. I liked the sound quality when I sat in the sweet spot. They had much more bass than I had expected. The midrange is the only odd part. I don't think it's for me but, it is excellent. It did nothing wrong but, there was something about it I didn't like... helpful comment isn't it?

Sorry to be so vague but, bear with me as I'm learning about monitors... I've never had good ones.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and ideas.

-Carl

Mad DOg · « **Reply #21 on:** 14 Dec 2003, 10:53 pm »

carlman,

i haven't heard your revels before, but i've heard the ultima studios and M20s driven jeff rowland gear...didn't like the M20s but i really enjoyed the ultima studios...i thought the ref 1s sounded very similar to the studios...at least more similarities than differences...hope this helps...

John Casler · « **Reply #22 on:** 15 Dec 2003, 12:09 am »

In that price range with those properties:

Van Alstine Biros
Reference Ones
"Well loaded" VMPS 626R
"New" VMPS RM1a w/10" megawoofer (also well loaded)
VMPS RM2
PMC LB1 (Transmission line)
nOhr 9s (need lots of power and power conditioning)
Gallo Nucleus Reference 3

Quote

I have auditioned the VMPS in another person's setup and was quite pleased with their reproduction quality. However, his setup was much different than mine so, imaging was completely different than I'm accustomed. He had a nearfield setup to immitate a sort of headphone environment... but, different. I liked the sound quality when I sat in the sweet spot. They had much more bass than I had expected. The midrange is the only odd part.

Since you mentioned the VMPS, I might comment on them. This is a good example of "set up", synergy, and personal preferences.

Any speaker can and will sound dramatically different in different systems, rooms and layout set ups.

The "headphone" effect you speak of is incredible if you "like" it.

It does, almost eliminate any room interaction (which is why it sounds like headphones) but many like to "hear" a bit of the room or else it sounds almost too good. It's all a "preference" thing.

In any event, take a look at a couple of the above suggestions, and even though some are slightly above your budget on "list price", the "street price" is pretty close, if you check around.

doug s. · « **Reply #23 on:** 15 Dec 2003, 01:38 pm »

Quote from: Carlman

...Also, my short list is growing out of control with the number of PM's I've received.

VMPS 626
Merlin TSM-M
Focus 688
Von Schweikert VR-2's
etc.
etc.

I'm amazed at the number of recommendations I've received and I genuinely appreciate it. ...

what's amazing is that there really *is* a huge number of excellent product in this range... and lotsa different flavors. i'd say it's unlikely that there's really *one* speaker that *everyone* would agree is "the best". in my limited experience, i have found that i could be happy long-term w/several different speakers, even tho they have different strengths & weaknesses... seems that every time i audition something, i hear some new aspect about sound reproduction that i like, which makes the search for that *last* pair of speakers ever more difficult!

doug s.

Carlman · « **Reply #24 on:** 15 Dec 2003, 02:34 pm »

I agree there are a lot of really good choices and it's mostly about preference/flavor diffs than anything else.

This thread was intended to elicit more choices than what I was aware of and it did the job. I wish I could go hear all of them but, that would take me a year or more. I had to read reviews which I know can often be meaningless but, I know how to read through crap and see what the associated gear is and give weight to respected reviewers and such..... Also, I've got a couple of speakers to audition soon. Piega's and Diluceo's are in the near future. Plus....

The one speaker that was reviewed using a lot of the same vocabulary as my Revel's was the Onix Ref 1's. What's more, I found a pair on Agon that were 1,k shipped in the color I wanted. I've emailed an offer and am waiting for the response. If that deal happens, I'll have the Ref 1's to compare to the Diluceo's. I feel I could sell the Onix's for the same price if the Diluceo's are a better fit for me.

I've practically made friends with a guy in CA that has offered to buy my Revel's. He's as excited about them as I was when I got them. So, if he comes through, I'll get the 2,k I was hoping for.... If he doesn't, I'll be hot.

So, I've made sort of a choice to try the Onix's for real. I'll be hearing 2 other brands shortly as well. I'm not sure I'm a fan of ribbons yet. I am and I'm not but, it's not what I'm used to so, I'm trying to wrap my ears around them better.

Thanks again to everyone who's provided input. If you go through this thread, there are so many monitor options that people could consider. I hope some others benefitted from reading this that are in a similar situation to me...

-Carl

Hantra · « **Reply #25 on:** 15 Dec 2003, 03:17 pm »

BTW, the guy with the C2's, he got another pair yesterday. So he will have a new pair, and a demo.

And if you go over, let me know. I want to either meet up, or at least get your stuff to you that I have needed to send out.

B

Carlman · « **Reply #26 on:** 15 Dec 2003, 08:28 pm »

The buyer for the Revel's agreed to pay shipping so, it looks like I'll have enough money for stands AND a sub for the Onix Ref 1's... Shipping costs as much as a sub for 2-100 lb. huge boxes.

I've never had stands before but, I hear people fill them with sand, ingots of lead, etc. But, I thought the ones at 'www.wood-tech.com' were pretty. And, those are what av123 sells.... comments?

So, should I start a new thread for subs and stands or can people just chime in here. I feel like I've 'been hoggin' a lot of AC'er time lately.

I'm playing Nathan's metal CD sampler

as a send off to the Revel's currently. It's getting me pretty pumped up...

Subs... think slam, fast, detailed for music only. I don't know how to blend a sub with a pair of monitors, really. I know it can be done but, I don't know how. Suggestions here... or, is that a thread for the Starting Block?

Rock on,
Carl

BikeWNC · « **Reply #27 on:** 15 Dec 2003, 08:37 pm »

Carl,

I'd probably start a new thread for the subs and stands. Just so members that have not followed this thread have a chance to chime in.

I would mention your budget, especially for the sub.

Andy

Carlman · « **Reply #28 on:** 15 Dec 2003, 09:47 pm »

Ok, that's done. I'll start a new thread for the sub. Thanks again.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #29 on:** 16 Dec 2003, 11:52 am »

Carl wrote "I feel like I've 'been hoggin' a lot of AC'er time lately. ".... Hey, we live for this stuff !!

..... Plus it helps to get some GOOD info from others .

Carlman · « **Reply #30 on:** 3 Jan 2004, 03:19 pm »

Thought I'd post a quick update on this situation...

The Onix Ref 1's came the same day as the Eastern Minimax. So, I put both on a repeating CD and left for vacation about a week and a half ago. Since then I've taken a listen here and there... Initially the Minimax was a bit restrained, grainy, and tight sounding.. that went away by the time I returned. I'll post more on my reactions to that in another thread.

My initial reaction to the Ref 1's are a bit dissapointing, though. I'm trying to work out placement and such to see if there's something I'm missing. They're very analytical and not very musical. Vocals have a nasal, pinched kind of sound. If I had to sum up the speaker in one word, it'd be 'diminutive'. It needs some richness and smoother transitions from mid to highs. The tweeter sounds like it's turned up louder than the woofer.

My issue could definitely be placement but, I'll take suggestions. My speaker cables are kind of cheap... Canare stuff... but, I'll have some Audience cables next week to try. However, I'll be trying some of the other suggested monitors on this thread if I can't work it out... which is sad because they sure are purdy.

Keep in mind these are my initial reactions. I'll experiment more but, I was looking for any suggestions on placement. Also keep in mind I had 2 full range 3-way's before that could fill a 20x30 room.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #31 on:** 3 Jan 2004, 04:20 pm »

Carl , About the MiniMax, the more it is used, the better it gets. My audition MM has about 120 hours on it. It really has opened up. A very good pre, just wish it had more inputs. But very "sweet" ! Good luck with your quest !

John Casler · « **Reply #32 on:** 3 Jan 2004, 07:57 pm »

Quote

My initial reaction to the Ref 1's are a bit dissapointing, though. I'm trying to work out placement and such to see if there's something I'm missing. They're very analytical and not very musical. Vocals have a nasal, pinched kind of sound. If I had to sum up the speaker in one word, it'd be 'diminutive'. It needs some richness and smoother transitions from mid to highs. The tweeter sounds like it's turned up louder than the woofer.

My issue could definitely be placement but, I'll take suggestions. My speaker cables are kind of cheap... Canare stuff... but, I'll have some Audience cables next week to try. However, I'll be trying some of the other suggested monitors on this thread if I can't work it out... which is sad because they sure are purdy.

WOW! thats interesting. I think you bought a used pair so I doubt if they aren't broken in.

As soon as we get back from CES, we're going to be hooking up the Mad DOg's REFs to the MiniMax and his Aragon Palladiums.

His system has always sounded detailed, but very "musical" and "large".

Interesting that you find them "analytical" (although they are VERY detailed) and "diminutive".

I didn't read through this whole thread, what Power Amp are you using?

CD?

It could be set up, but I'm sure you have set many speakers in those spots. Any particular aspects to the setup and positioning that you feel might affect them?

It'll be fun to compare the MM and the REFs over here and see what they sound like in a different setting.

Probably another example of "set up" and "setting" making the difference.

Mad DOg · « **Reply #33 on:** 3 Jan 2004, 09:44 pm »

Quote from: Carlman

...I'm trying to work out placement and such to see if there's something I'm missing...

hello Carlman,

how far apart are the speakers spaced and how much toe in are you using?

try placing them about 8 ft or so apart with the speakers toed in so that on axis response is about a foot behind your normal listening position. this will mean your listening position will be about 1 foot inside the on-axis intersection point.

i have experienced the collapse of soundstage and "pinched" sound that you are describing when i used too much toe in...

when i brought the refs over to harleymyk's place, he heard first hand what difference the toe in made...

Carlman · « **Reply #34 on:** 3 Jan 2004, 11:50 pm »

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll try the spacing and the toe-in suggested.

In the meantime I had an opportunity to hear some Von Schweikert VR-1's today. Holy smokes! They are a very natural, musical speaker. To me, they got the midrange so right I couldn't resist buying them. So, I now have the VR-1's breaking in in my sound room.

The Onix's were playing for a week and a half non-stop with the Minimax. I doubt they're 'fully' broken-in but, close enough to analyze them.

Right out of the box, I'd prefer the VR-1's over the Onix, though. The midrange and midbass are more palpable to me and the highs aren't as exagerated. They still have some congestion that sounds like that 'new speaker' sound... so, I'll reserve judgement on that later. It's a potatoes potahtoes type of thing at this point... I personally like the sonic signature of the VR's over the Onix but, they're both excellent speakers.

What's interesting is that they can both be described as detailed, punchy and have excellent imaging. However, they sound very different. This hobby sure is fun....

PS, amp is the AKSA 100n CD is a Pioneer mod'ed by Dan W and Museatex mod'd by John Wright. Cables are all Audience for the most part.

nature boy · « **Reply #35 on:** 3 Jan 2004, 11:58 pm »

Carlman,

Glad you like the Von Schweikert VR-1's. I heard the VR-2's at a dealer a few weeks ago, a very impressive speaker. These should mate well with your AKSA amplifier and the Eastern Electric MiniMax preamp.

I believe Hantra and Nathan Loyer compared CDP's in a system that included the VR-2's and Minimax preamp a few weeks ago. I can't remember the amp they used in their evaluation.

Happy listening & good luck finding a new home for the Onix reference 1 monitors.

NB

Rocket · « **Reply #36 on:** 4 Jan 2004, 12:21 am »

Hi Carlman,

What you might be hearing is a lack of mid/bass sound whilst using the onix reference 1's.

My speakers are mtm with 2 x 7 inch focals and i have compared them to another speaker with the exact same tweeter (raven1) but with 5 inch mid/bass focals. i definitely preferred my speakers as the mid/bass region seemed fuller.

The onix are small bookshelf speakers? What size are the vr2's?

It's definitely not the amp. i just recently received my new cables from bolder and it seems to be the icing on the cake now.

Btw are there any gain issued between the mm and aksa? are you still going to buy the dodd preamp?

Regards

rocket

ps sounds like your having a lotta fun.

Sa-dono · « **Reply #37 on:** 4 Jan 2004, 02:47 am »

Carlman,

How are the speakers and your seating currently setup, and have you setup your room treatments already?

Mad DOg · « **Reply #38 on:** 4 Jan 2004, 02:53 am »

Carlman,

If you find that you prefer the VR-1s, I'll take the Ref 1s off your hands for $750...

John Casler · « **Reply #39 on:** 4 Jan 2004, 04:24 am »

Quote from: Mad DOg

Carlman,

If you find that you prefer the VR-1s, I'll take the Ref 1s off your hands for $750...

In the early days of Harry Pearson's Audiophile Rag "The Absolute Sound", many times when they found a great speaker, they would find a way to make it even better by doing a "mirror image" stacking.

That is, they would flip the second speaker upside down and stack it on the first so the tweeters were together in sort of a "double tweeter" D'Appolito config.

The two I remember most dearly were the stacked ADVENTS and the stacked Dahlquist DQ10s (I had these)

Might be interesting to try that out if you have two pair. Not sure how or if the tweeters would offer the proper spacing not to "lobe" or negatively interact, but then again it might sound awsome