Why Tubes Sound Better than SS

Steve · « **Reply #100 on:** 31 Mar 2009, 02:46 am »

Quote from: JoshK on 30 Mar 2009, 02:37 am

Quote from: Steve on 30 Mar 2009, 02:31 am
I agree with many of the sentiments posted earlier. If I may, I would like to introduce a couple of other factors.

1) The DA (dielectric absorption) of a solid state device is much higher than that of a tube since a tube uses a vacuum as the dielectric.

2) The power supply capacitors I have seen in most or all stages of solid state amplification is of the electrolytic variety. This means the DA and ESR is much higher than that of film type capacitors that is often used in tube components.

Just a couple of more points to consider.

Hope this helps solve the sonic differences.

Steve

True, and what's worse is that in most complimentary SS amps the last cap(s) in the PSU are in the (AC) signal path (current loop), which are usually 'lytics, even though the amps are DC coupled. The same is true for SET amps, that the last cap in the PSU is in the AC current loop, but most builders recognize this and use good quality film cap as the last PSU cap.

Yep, and the previous stages as well if one does a Thevenin equivalent circuit.

Take care.

cryoparts · « **Reply #101 on:** 31 Mar 2009, 04:06 am »

Quote from: rydenfan on 27 Mar 2009, 03:26 am

IMO, I think that the blanket statements about tubes and solid state no longer really apply. I think the design/advancement of each has been quite astounding. There is plenty of tube gear that some would call "solid state like" and plenty of solid state gear that one could say "has tube like warmth or midrange." I know that over the last few months my eyes (and more importantly ears) have really been opened up to this. I have certainly heard solid state gear that I would call more musical than tube gear, and to me, ultimate musicality is paramount. I truly believe that the vast majority of the sound of a particular component is greater determined by the designer of the piece and the voicing they create than some of the nuts and bolts used. Just my $.02

That is one fine post! X2!

Peace,

Lee

TRM · « **Reply #102 on:** 1 Apr 2009, 04:43 am »

Quote from: doug s. on 30 Mar 2009, 02:46 pm

ear candy wins out over eye candy, when it comes to audio equipment.

doug s.

I wouldn't disagree a bit. I never said that looks won out, merely that I like the fact that my amp looks great and sounds great.

Browntrout · « **Reply #103 on:** 1 Apr 2009, 07:54 am »

I think the reason tubes sound better than transistors is to do with the high voltage they work at. The nature of electricity means that using a higher voltage incurs a different affect upon electron flow by the conductor. It is this difference, the voltage difference at the point of amplification, that I think is the reason why valves sound better.

Tyson · « **Reply #104 on:** 1 Apr 2009, 08:25 am »

Voltage is your friend, current is your enemy

denjo · « **Reply #105 on:** 1 Apr 2009, 08:34 am »

Our ears are not averse to tube harmonic distortion.

jon_010101 · « **Reply #106 on:** 1 Apr 2009, 08:57 am »

It's all in the topology...

You can design a tube amp to sound just as bad as a solid state amp, or you can design a solid state amp to sound just as bad as a tube amp

doug s. · « **Reply #107 on:** 1 Apr 2009, 11:12 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 1 Apr 2009, 08:25 am

Voltage is your friend, current is your enemy

i have always wondered about this, and wondered if folks outside n america have inherently better sounding rigs because of the almost universal use of 220v standard?

doug s.

doug s. · « **Reply #108 on:** 1 Apr 2009, 11:13 am »

Quote from: TRM on 1 Apr 2009, 04:43 am

Quote from: doug s. on 30 Mar 2009, 02:46 pm
ear candy wins out over eye candy, when it comes to audio equipment.

doug s.

I wouldn't disagree a bit. I never said that looks won out, merely that I like the fact that my amp looks great and sounds great.

i don't disagree w/you either - i wish my melos pre looks as nice as the cary it replaced!

doug s.

stereocilia · « **Reply #109 on:** 1 Apr 2009, 03:06 pm »

Quote from: denjo on 1 Apr 2009, 08:34 am

Our ears are not averse to tube harmonic distortion.

I found another page which discusses the previously discussed T.A.D. idea.

http://www.daredtube.com/pages/ampfile%20list.HTM

This looks like the right way of thinking about it, but does anybody else wonder what happens when more than a single pure tone is used to map the self-distortion characteristics of the ear? I hope I'm getting this right (I'm sure I can be corrected if I'm wrong), but wasn't it Rodger Modjeski who asked something like, "What is the second harmonic of Beethoven's Ninth?" The point being that second harmonic distortion, (is that what you mean by tube harmonic distortion?), is not as benign as the results from looking at what happens with a single pure tone would suggest. Again, I hope I'm remembering that right.

stereocilia · « **Reply #110 on:** 1 Apr 2009, 03:48 pm »

Also, I would be remiss not to mention the GedLee metric as one which relates the ear-brain system to perceived sound quality. I wonder how tube amps would measure vs. solid state when using T.A.D. or Gm?

JoshK · « **Reply #111 on:** 1 Apr 2009, 04:04 pm »

Quote from: Tyson on 1 Apr 2009, 08:25 am

Voltage is your friend, current is your enemy

I wouldn't agree with that as a general statement. Without current you can't make sound, you can't drive cables, etc. Often what is needed within a tube amp in order to gain higher performance is to be able to swing volts (voltage gain) while at the same time being able to deliver current (to charge and discharge capacitances). One needs both.

Just to confuse matters more, SS amps are near voltage sources while tube amps are weak current sources. Wrap your head around that for a while.

pardales · « **Reply #112 on:** 1 Apr 2009, 06:46 pm »

Quote from: jon_010101 on 1 Apr 2009, 08:57 am

It's all in the topology...

You can design a tube amp to sound just as bad as a solid state amp, or you can design a solid state amp to sound just as bad as a tube amp

werd · « **Reply #113 on:** 1 Apr 2009, 10:52 pm »

I know one reason why SS might be better than tubes(notice how i didnt say sound better but be better). I think one of the coolest things in audio is tube rolling. I have owned tube gear but have never entertained this activity. Although i think its the coolest thing in audio, its also the archilles heel of listening. I cant imagine how much listening fatigue i would encounter by worrying about what tube would sound best. I would be doin this all the time when listening and quite frankily it would do nothing but get in the way of my enjoyment of music. This isnt possible with SS gear so it doesnt get in the way of listening to music. The best thing to do imo, is the way of neutrality and SS can u give u tons of that.

Sorry i am such SS guy butting in, my apologies for that.

rajacat · « **Reply #114 on:** 2 Apr 2009, 12:00 am »

You can roll caps.

Unless you've tried variety of caps You'll never know if your amp is being the best it can be. How's that for audionervosa.

Tubes are easier to roll than capacitors aside from upgraded resistors, etc., etc......

TRM · « **Reply #115 on:** 2 Apr 2009, 01:13 am »

Quote from: doug s. on 1 Apr 2009, 11:13 am

i don't disagree w/you either - i wish my melos pre looks as nice as the cary it replaced!

doug s.

Sorry, I get you know

Dan_ed · « **Reply #116 on:** 3 Apr 2009, 04:36 pm »

What happens with large crescendos in transistors? You have a very small silicon junction through which a relatively large amount of current has to get through fast to meet the demand. Due to the small area (higher resistance) there is a lot of loss due to the conversion to heat. Contrast this with the surface area of the junctions in a tube. Much larger, easier to deal with getting those burst through.

That is not to say there aren't any good SS devices out there. I've still not found any that I prefer listening to music through, but we're all different. I do have a big, honkin' 300 watt/ch SS amp in my theater.

Niteshade · « **Reply #117 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 04:43 pm »

Transistors haven't been around long as a mainstream technology. Please keep this in mind.

For that matter- in the grand scheme of things, neither have tubes!

There are great things that can be done with both of them yet. (Yet, meaning we haven't explored all the possibilities and that is why we continue to see improvements in each of them!)

I'm waiting for a third technology to come out that will wipe them both off the map!

Sound quality is based more on the circuit used than the devices that make them up, providing said devices are of high quality and functioning properly. My statement is based on scientific observations and completely unbiased.

groovybassist · « **Reply #118 on:** 4 Apr 2009, 07:20 pm »

Well, as a solid state guy (not a rabid one), I'll dip my toe in the water here...

I use Naim gear - a CD5X, NAC 122X, Flatcap 2X and NAP 150X. While they're completely solid state, I think they do a great job of communicating the emotional aspects of a performance, which is what I believe this is all about. The recent vintage Naim gear is on the warm side of solid state, so it's not the dry, sterile sound many associate with solid state. I often think about auditioning some tube gear and am sure I'd enjoy it. I'm just not sure I'd enjoy wondering if my tubes need replacing, shopping for new ones, and actually replacing them periodically. I find I already have enough things to think about audio wise - speaker setup, room interaction, acoustic treatment, cables (although Naim simplifies this a lot), rack, stands, isolation/decoupling devices and on and on. I'm not sure I could take another thing to think about! Maybe I just need to hear the latest tube gear to be slain?

Enjoy!

-Mike

Les Lammers · « **Reply #119 on:** 6 Apr 2009, 08:59 pm »

Chocolate, vanilla, strawberry, tubes or SS? *I* think it is just personal preference.