[Dokter_doug]

Ears, just as a FYI: Young people get older, and as they do their tastes (in music, what sorts of cars they drive, their clothes, etc.) change. And they start making money. Downloaded MP3's are cool for university/school age kids,  because they're "free". They'll be interested in in different and more expensive methods of listening to music as they age. The very fact that that demographic age group is listening to music in such numbers predicts a group of music-savvy adult consumers with an area of interest which will gladly relieve them of their hard earned dollars in the future.

Demographically speaking, we're now seeing the baby-boomers' children arrive at an age where they are developing purchasing power. This is a group of "kids" who have been raised by folks of my generation who have not been particularly restrained in spending money on consumer goods like high fidelity stereos and kick ass home theatre systems. Those accustomed tastes will continue to drive the high end music industry for at least another generation (and the automotive, clothing, tourist industries as well). We've inculcated good taste in our children, and we've taught them how to spend money.

My kids (at least) are very used to the notion of multichannel "sound" because of how they watch movies. I would suggest that this penchant will carry over into their music listening habits.

Although the SACD and DVD-Audio formats have been around for 4 years (I take your word for that), good, affordable universal disc players have not. As more companies market universal players, the formats will "take off", however, as you've pointed out, the demographic group currently targetted by SACD releases such as the Bob Dylan catalogue are not a younger group. It's my age group that has the $ right now so we're being pimped by the big labels who hope we'll buy all our Steely Dan and Crowded House CD's again in high res format.

Having said that I can also tell you that both the Linkin Park and Missy Elliot DVD-Audio release kick ass.

I suspect that high res and multichannel music will flourish. And BTW, it wasn't the content of your comment I was laughing at, it was th absolute certainty of your opinion that amused me.

Peace.

Doug

PS My 22 year old son is getting the SACD release of Miles Davis' Sketches of Spain in his Xmas stocking this year. Would that count as "empirical evidence?"

[Ears]

On the other hand, it's really surprising to watch the kids checking out the SACDs & DVD-As at BB.  You see quite a few early-20's types buying hirez discs.  I don't know whether it's novelty, MC or the hi rez aspect.  Of course, this is anecdotal, not empiracle, but young people by and large seem to be reasonably hip to it, at least where SACD is concerned.

High end in general is pretty much a blip on the average Joe's radar.  Case in point:  the bank where I work gave away a bundle of a DVD player & a  ...

Rob, I have yet to see anyone under 30 look at sacd or dvd-a at any of my local BB's but I am glad to hear there are some that do.

Your last comment about hi end is right on target no matter where you live.
Most people .... well over 90% think that anything over 79.00 for a dvd player that plays mp3's is  too much.

[bubba966]

High end in general is pretty much a blip on the average Joe's radar. Case in point: the bank where I work gave away a bundle of a DVD player & a movie (Dicken's "Christmas Carol") to each employee today. A few of us got to talking about movies, and pretty much everyone thought I was f'in nuts when I described my HT system. Seems like anything over $600 is frivolous, at least to my stuff coworkers. Try to sell them on a $5k SET tube amp...

So, what was more worthwhile to keep, the DVDP or the movie?...

[Rob Babcock]

Well, the player is a 'Coby', and it does have a SCART socket.   It's laughably flimsy and cheesy is it's construction, but my WTF-might-as-well-try-it testing reveals it to play MP3 as advertised, and supposedly it'll play Kodak picture discs.  I don't think it'll nudge my Denon DVD-2200 outta the rack, though!

Doug, were you talking about me or just EARS?  I didn't think my opinion was that radical, but I've been listening to my own hype for so long that I don't even notice it anymore!   I have confessed to being a "Multichannel Messiah," so take my 'propoganda' for what it is.  As for the Crowded House, I always thought they were pop crap- that is, until I actually listened to them!  That is one damned fine album and a great demo of what DVD-A can do.  As for Steely Dan, I think all their stuff is f'in brilliant, including the last 2 on DVD-A.  I'd run, not walk, to buy a DVD-A remixes of their older stuff done as well as the newest couple.  YMMV, of course- I just happen to really dig 'em.  Fagen's The Nightfly if really superb, too.

I was really surprised to see the kids flocking to the SACDs.  Sure, most of the shoppers are balding middle aged fat guys, but it seems like the younger crowd is as into 'Floyd and Dylan as the old farts are.  Maybe it's just the college crowd, I dunno.

There isn't enough audio activity in Sioux Falls, SD to really lable anything a trend, however!

[Dokter_doug]

Rob, my response was to Ears.

I too own all the Steely Dan and Donald Fagen DVD-Audios and they're stunning, as is the Dylan catalogue, especially the multi-channel version. Ears is correct however when he points out that  the big companies will have to release their current rap, hip hop, r&b and metal content in high res format if they hope to woo a younger audience...and it will have to be inexpensive.

[Dokter_doug]

And yes, I really like Crowded Houseas well. I don't yet have their high res release.

[WerTicus]

I’m 21

I have bought the yes discs, a couple rems, a couple fleetwood macs(say you will is turd, rumors is great), eagles, stone temple, on DVDA

and on sa cd I have avalon, the stranger, peter frampton, so, us, clear water revival.

maybe its kind of good that no new stuff was out because otherwise I might not have gotten to listen to all this great old stuff

though perhaps it was easier for me to get into because i grew up listening to my dad playing the above on record when i was 4 or 5. which he sold all of

When I go into a store I used to have to educate the staff as to what the hell I was talking about when I said 'dvd audio' and they took me to the music videos

Ignorance is the main problem with gaining acceptance... in Perth WA you cannot listen to anything other than low end mid fi... except in perhaps two or three out of the way stores...Bose is everywhere... chicks don’t seem to care about sound as much as guys but males my age are pretty easy to impress....  

when i show them my stereo they go completely silent and tell me they have to get me to build them one... naturally none of my friends can really afford that right now  though a couple have just come out of uni so perhaps soon ill have a fun project on my hands

theehheehehheeh  I love being into this stuff, anyone else?

[EDS_]

I’m 21

I have bought the yes discs, a couple rems, a couple fleetwood macs(say you will is turd, rumors is great), eagles, stone temple, on DVDA

and on sa cd I have avalon, the stranger, peter frampton, so, us, clear water revival.

maybe its kind of good that no new stuff was out because otherwise I might not have gotten to listen to all this great old stuff

though perhaps it was easier for me to get into because i grew up listening to my dad playing the above on record when i was 4 or 5. wh ...

Touchdown!

Locally BB just up the street has a fairly complete offering of SACDs and a nearly complete offering of DVD-A titles.

For the longest time they only had DVD-As mixed in with DVD music videos and no SACDs (except a few stealth ones).
Finally the manager moved the DVD-As to a nice position at the front of the store in front of the CDs.
Next he had SACDs added right next to the DVD-As. He has been "shocked" at the number of both types of hi-rez disks exiting the store.


1. Best Buy has picked up a frequent shopper (me) becasue of their hi-rez offerings. FE-I just bought a 120g hard drive and some memory from this BB just the other day. I've purchased about 1/2 (about 60 disks) of my hi-rez music in this store as well.

2. Their hi-rez disk pricing is usually excellent. FE-the single layer SACD "Kind of Blue" was $19.99 at Barns and Nobel. $14.99 at BB.

3. About a year ago I explained many of the ins and outs of hi-rez to the manager---he in-turn explained these things to his workers.
FE-at checkout the cashiers ask me questions like--Do you know this single-layer SACDs will not play in a CD player? etc.

[Ears]

It may have amused you but I don't consider it my opinion...but rather what is.

You can go over to www.avsforum.com in the dvd section and see that a pro reviewer who is also pro hi rez...especially dvd-a agrees whith what I said completely about the future of high end and hi rez at this point.

I do not agree whith him in that titles like DSOTM sold only 1-2% of the copies sold to people who wanted the hi rez layer.

I had an sa-cd player the minute they hit the shelves and also have a dvd-a player and support anything that offers better sonics no matter what I believe and ALL signs point two in the future.

The comments made in this thread by those that think hi rez is the next big wave for the masses holds no water whatsoever and is more like whishful thinking.

Both sa-cd and dvd-a sales are dismal at best whith the exception of DSOTM,Dylan,Stones,Police and a huge percentage of these discs like the Dylan sa-cd's are sold in the cd section at BB to many unsuspecting consumers that just want the cd  remastered version.

dvd-a has NO big sellers of that formats titles.

This is what is going on whith hi rez in reality although I whish it were not the case....sadly it is.
SA-CD has been out for at least 4 years but I believe dvd-a has only been around about three years.

I do belive that hi rez can live whith a mostly audiophool based consumer but people have to keep in mind that Joe and Jane average[the masses] are not going to hear more than a subtle difference between hi rez and cdr when they are playing it back on an entry level player hooked up to lo fi gear.

This subtle difference is not going to get them to quit downloading free music for expensive [to them] hi rez discs.

[Dokter_doug]

It may have amused you but I don't consider it my opinion...but rather what is.

So now it's two opinions rolled into one, or rather the same opinion articulated twice.  You can keep saying it Ears, and pointing to the postings of others who share that opinion, but it's still just that...an opinion, although, truth be told, I always think that others who share my opinion are smarter than most   Once again it's not the opinion but the hardheaded "it's not an opinion, it's the truth" attitude I find amusing.

Any thoughts as to whether or not the Red Book CD will last forever, or is there going to be a recording format that ultimatley replaces it?

There has been significant lag between the possibility of HDTV (+/- its widescreen presentation) and its realization on a grand scale.
I suspect we'll see the same thing with SACD/DVD-Audio as well. One or the other, or both, may become the defacto standard for any audio recorded medium, and won't be considered "high res" at all. We refer to them as such only because we compare them to the Red Book format which, by comparison, becomes "low res".

[Rob Babcock]

Another point to consider is that while many hires discs are MC, they need not be.  SACD and DVD-A stereo are still a big step up from stereo CDs.

JMO, but I think that eventually both formats will take off, and I think when they do it will happen fairly suddenly.

[WerTicus]

I am not particularly into surround sound (for music) just yet

I like stereo hi res just as much and when im listening to my stereo seriously I turn off surrounds anyway... but thats only because the surrounds are not hi end floor standers like the main speakers.

but when they are... ohhhh baby

[Ears]

So now it's two opinions rolled into one, or rather the same opinion articulated twice.  You can keep saying it Ears, and pointing to the postings of others who share that opinion, but it's still just that...an opinion, although, truth be told, I always think that others who share my opinion are smarter than most   Once again it's not the opinion but the hardheaded "it's not an opinion, it's the truth" attitude I find amusing.

Any thoughts as to whether or not the Red Book CD will last forever,  ...

 My opinion is that every home should have sa-cd and dvd-a or any other format that shows improvement over exsisting standards but that doesn't change anything now does it ?

Your comparison of hi rez to hdtv is not even close ....hdtv offers an obvious improvement that every consumer can see whith there eyes and eventually will be available at a reasonable cost in the U.S. like it has been elsewhere in the world for at least a decade.
A better comparison would be dvd-v.
As somone who purchased one of the first dvd-v players, I can tell you after 4 years they were available everywhere for renting or purchase and had become a household name by then.

This is because you can see the difference on a cheap 20 inch tv and no hi end or mid fi gear is required to go along whith it to get the benifits.
In other words more people[mass market] are into dvd-v because of the picture quality and not just  the sound.
Now you take hi rez which requires a lot more of an investement to hear what you and I hear as a major improvement on a decent recording and the masses will never pony up that kind of money.

Do you honestly belive that Joe and Jane average are going to buy into hi rez whith no digital output....if they wanted hi rez to even stand a chance at mass market appeal, they would have a digita output by now on more than just one model...and it would also need to be universal.
Part of the blame for hi rez formats crawling along at a snails pace is marketing, the other problem is that  the free music concept has become ingrained in the average consumers brain....regardless of age.

Again...there is no free competition for dvd-v either or hdtv like there is for music.

I have sold players at a-gon that cost  up to 3k and rarely have a sale whithout somone asking if the player plays cdr's.
It is not just kids whith little income that are into free music.

I will continue to support hi rez regardless and hope that a niche market keeps it alive but have no illusions of mass appeal just because you/I know that it is an improvement as we are part of that niche group.


All I have to say about cd is...nothing lasts forever.

[lcrim]

The true resolution of DSD or DVD-A can't be truly judged until and/or if some manufacturer provides a fully digital playback of these digital formats.  They both remain in some sense flawed because of the necessary conversion to analog in nearly every player I am aware of.  What you hear then is an analog conversion of the material and sound quality is very dependant upon how well this handled.  
The Sony all-in-ones may be providing true digital playback of SACD though I've heard that DSD is converted to PCM first and then their proprietary C-PLM (Complementary Pulse Length Modulation).
I was an early adopter of SACD and have returned to CD (Redbook) because of the higher resolution possible through the use of a digital receiver.

[John Kotches]

THere are a few out there enjoying digital transfer of DVD-A and SA-CD, including those with Meridian, Accuphase, Denon, Pioneer, dCS, Muse and some others I'm sure I missed.

Cheers,

[lcrim]

John:
Could you please supply the model numbers from those manufacturers that are capable of digital playback of SACD or DVD-A.   I would very much like to check them out.  
Sorry, I guess I should have said mass market or main stream manufacturers.

Addendum:
I did find the Denon DVD 5900 @ $2000 list that has both "Denon Link" for use with latest model 5803 Denon Receiver providing fully digital connection (the rceiver is of course, solid state). as well as IEEE 1394 (firewire) outputs which are also for digital outputs to unspecified devices.

Larry Crimmins

[John Kotches]

Larry:

Meridian 598Dp, G98, G91 and 800v3 to:  568.2MM, G68 or 861v3/v4
Muse Erato -->  MAP
Denon DVD-9000 or DVD-5900 --> AVR-5800 (upgraded) or AVR-5803
Pioneer DV-47axi, new model (forget the number) --> RX-49axi, RX-55axi
dCS transports (forget part #) --> various DACs
Accuphase  DP-100 --> DC-101
Sharp DX-SX1 --> SR-SX100 (or something like that)

There are others that I know I'm missing, but this is all off the top of my head.

[lcrim]

John:
After taking a look at the hardware you pointed out, there are some manufacturers that know how to implement SACD and DVD-A properly.  The reviews seem to bear out my feeling that the mainstream players that immediately change the signal to analog are at a disadvantage.  The trade-off, as usual, is price.   Most of this equipment makes high end analog look inexpensive by comparison.
The reason I am using digital amplification is the high bang for buck ratio.  At least for Redbook playback, it is a cost effective way to get very good performance.  For SACD or DVD-A I will have to save my pennies and hope that the technology trickles down into the affordable sector.
Thanks, I learned something.

Larry Crimmins

[John Kotches]

Larry,

It's a question of when, not if.

I consciously made the decision to purchase Meridian for the digital path.

Cheers,

[WerTicus]

these digital recievers are usually a bit under powered arnt they? i like a good... you know... 300w rms