[stvnharr]

Hi Steve,

by "...turn the other speaker, the one against the wall, about 45 degrees away." do you mean "toed out" 45 degrees ?

Yes

[mdconnelly]

I spent a few hours over the Christmas holiday exploring the benefits of Master Set in my system and I think I came away more confused than convinced.  But, as many have said, it takes a lot of patience and time to get it right.  Don't think I'm there yet, but haven't given up yet either.

I do have one question... if striving to maintain an equilateral triangle, then why would you not move the first speaker toward you along the triangle angle rather than moving it out perpendicular to the long wall?   Is it easier to hear the changes in the bass when moving perpendicular rather than directly toward the listening position?   

[stvnharr]

I spent a few hours over the Christmas holiday exploring the benefits of Master Set in my system and I think I came away more confused than convinced.  But, as many have said, it takes a lot of patience and time to get it right.  Don't think I'm there yet, but haven't given up yet either.

I do have one question... if striving to maintain an equilateral triangle, then why would you not move the first speaker toward you along the triangle angle rather than moving it out perpendicular to the long wall?   Is it easier to hear the changes in the bass when moving perpendicular rather than directly toward the listening position?   

Move the speaker out perpendicular to the wall in a straight line.  Forget the triangle, that's just a starting position.  The sound should all go the to moved out speaker when the rear of the speaker is out about a foot. If you move the right speaker, the bass will move first, but eventually the voice will move too.  If you are having trouble with this, you can toe the speaker against the wall to 45 degrees away, but keep it playing.
In some circumstance with weird room shape, the music will not go to the moved out speaker.  In this case, start over and move the other speaker. However, you will likely have a hard time getting the sound to balance in this situation.
Also, if speakers are on short wall, there is real difficulty in getting the sound to go to the moved out speaker as there are too many reflections.

FWIW, I have recently done some tweaking to my room here in Ballarat, and I have pretty good balance sound now in a very difficult room situation.  So, it CAN be done.

[Afterimage]

I would not mind giving this method a try, but my speakers weigh 115 lbs each.  Anyone ever try this method with heavier speakers?

[stvnharr]

I would not mind giving this method a try, but my speakers weigh 115 lbs each.  Anyone ever try this method with heavier speakers?

My speakers and stands weigh 80-85 lbs. each.  I use furniture sliders under the spikes, and this works fine.

[AKSA]

Hi Steve,

How goes it?  Expect an email later today, sorry for delays.

Kieran (AI),

A good way round this problem is to use a stout piece of cardboard trimmed to fit under each speaker with a lip at one end to permit moving the cardboard and the speaker together on carpet.  This way you can move it around without too much trouble.  When you have it exactly right, mark the carpet with erasable marker, lift the speaker while your helper slips out the cardboard, and you're done.

I have used Master Set with Steve right here in Oz, and can vouch for it.  It works.  It's a tiresome process, but it delivers superior imaging.

Cheers,

Hugh

[JakeJ]

Hi Afterimage,
Yes, my Genesis 5s weigh almost 140lbs so I attached casters to the bottom by drilling four holes and screwing in threaded inserts.  If you don't want to do that then I can highly recommend furniture gliders available at any hardware store.  I have hard floors but if you have carpet then the gliders will work very well.

I have been meaning to post about my experience and include some pictures but right now my bed is in the middle of my living room due to having just gone through open heart surgery.  My bedroom is in the basement and I can't climb the stairs for a few weeks so my friends moved my bed upstairs for the interim.  I will get it done as soon as I get the bed moved back down stairs.

I do want to say that I am glad I tried it and am very happy with the results.  I did get a bunch of coaching from Jon Finnegan, a friend of member timztunz, and I feel his help reduced the trial and error period by at least a couple of weeks.

Well Steve beat me to it with shorter post.  I also got sidetracked by a phone call but the long and short of it is you should give it a try.

JakeJ

[Afterimage]

Great.  Thanks for the tips guys.  Okay, one of the days that I feel ambitious I will give a try, with some help of course.

[PSP]

I've started to work on Master Set with the Orions (these are not really heavy though) and--although I have only had time to do a "pretty good" job setting the first speaker and the second speaker was set even more approximately--the results are really quite good (much more clarity and sparkle, more and better defined bass). 

The original location was set in agreement with SL's recommendation that the Orions be at least 4' away from the rear wall and positions were fine-tuned using the out-of-phase tracks on the XLO-Reference Recordings CD and following their directions.  I was happy with that set. 

Following Master Set through once (with Steve's counsel and advice), and then going back to tweak it a bit (total time maybe 90 minutes), my speakers are now ~ 15 inches closer to the rear wall (and to my eyes, too damn far into the corner and way too close to the lovely "entertainment center" that the love of my life wanted to buy a few years ago).  So how do they sound?  In total disregard for The Teachings of The Great Audiophiles they sound much, much better and I would be willing to bet that more work will lead to even better results.

I did a little arithmetic:  In Master Set you move the speakers 2-3 mm at a time.  It's interesting that the wavelength of 12kHz sound is ~ 2.7mm (and 20kHz is around 1.7mm).  Further, folks say that when you get Master Set exactly right, the sound comes together in an incredibly satisfying way (I have not yet reached that wonderful state).  Briefly, I'm starting to think that it might be possible using Master Set to get speakers set in a room so that they that are effectively aligned within one wavelength at 12kHz (in a way that takes room interactions into account, all this without instruments!). 

If you consider the Left and Right sound fields from conventionally located speakers, there will be a central zone (where high intensity L and R sound fields "mix" and interact strongly) with phase cancellations and reinforcements that were not present in the original performance and--to the degree that they are audible--would contribute a degree of distortion.  If, e.g., using Master Set, it is possible to get the L&R speakers aligned so that their phases are optimally correct (i.e., as good as one can do with given speakers in a given room) then in the central region where L & R sound fields mix, we might expect a lot less artifactual phase cancellation and reinforcement) and this setup might sound really, really good.

I realize that this may be a controversial idea and that I am not a qualified accoustic engineer (although I do think a lot about wave mechanics for work, it's in a different field).  This suggestion is certainly "too simple" and I have almost certainly offended whole swaths of the enlightened, but I would hope that no one get too excited and spend too much time writing long rebuttals.  I do have time to read short rebuttals, and might even respond.  For the most part though, I will spend my time working on Master Set, listening to music, and tweaking my GK-1.  I hope that in taking the time to lay out this idea, I might encourage a few more folks to follow Steve's lead and try Master Set.

Good luck, and may there be the most awesome music in your house,
Peter

[timztunz]

Hi Afterimage,
Yes, my Genesis 5s weigh almost 140lbs so I attached casters to the bottom by drilling four holes and screwing in threaded inserts.  If you don't want to do that then I can highly recommend furniture gliders available at any hardware store.  I have hard floors but if you have carpet then the gliders will work very well.

I have been meaning to post about my experience and include some pictures but right now my bed is in the middle of my living room due to having just gone through open heart surgery.  My bedroom is in the basement and I can't climb the stairs for a few weeks so my friends moved my bed upstairs for the interim.  I will get it done as soon as I get the bed moved back down stairs.

I do want to say that I am glad I tried it and am very happy with the results.  I did get a bunch of coaching from Jon Finnegan, a friend of member timztunz, and I feel his help reduced the trial and error period by at least a couple of weeks.

Well Steve beat me to it with shorter post.  I also got sidetracked by a phone call but the long and short of it is you should give it a try.

JakeJ

Hey JakeJ,

Good to see you at the keyboard.  Been worried about you.

[fsimms]

Thanks Steve for posting all that info about Master Set!   I used your info to help me do a Master Set last week and it has been fantastic listening to my speakers!   They have never sounded better.   The image I get is incredible.

Bob

[Listens2tubes]

Hey Bob it looks like your left speaker is straight facing and your right is slightly toed in. Is this how you ended up with equal room loading being so close to the right corner/g-father clock?

[fsimms]

Hey Bob it looks like your left speaker is straight facing and your right is slightly toed in. Is this how you ended up with equal room loading being so close to the right corner/g-father clock?

Yes I notice it after I posted.   There are two chairs in behind where I took the pictures.  I was standing in front of the right one when I took the picture but when I listen to the speakers I am in the left chair.  i.e. From my listening chair they are equally toed in.   Good catch!

Bob

PS  I have my speakers toed in to point to a point about 4 feet in back of my chair.

[fsimms]

This is a picture taken from behind my primary listening chair.  There is a good image all they way around the room though.





Bob

[Listens2tubes]

After this years RMAF I am going to read this thread again & begin my "winter project" then.

[stvnharr]

Bob,
Thanks for the kind words.
In looking at your posted picture, and one in your gallery, I noticed a couple things.  One is that I see that there is not much toe in in your set. Um, any MS done speaker set that I've seen, or done, has a fair bit of toe in - not really a direct triangle, but close.  Without the toe-in, I've found that when you move from side to side, the speaker on the side you move to will dominate.
Also, I noticed a large couch 2-3 feet away from the left speaker, slightly off the side.  I once tried to set up speakers with something similar and I couldn't get it.  We had to move the couch out of the way.
Nevertheless, it's what you hear that counts, and as long as you are satisfied, that's what's most important.
If my writings helped you out, I'm pleased to have contributed.

Steve

[fsimms]

That is an interesting point about toe in.  I didn’t try playing with toe in with master set.  I just used the toe in that I found works well in previous experiments.   Your comment makes sense to me.   Just thinking out loud, I would think the amount of toe in would be a function of the lateral dispersion of the speaker.   I would think that a speaker with great side dispersion would not need as much toe in.  I have a good image until I get less than 3 feet directly in front of the left speaker.   I even have a good image lying on the couch with my feet pointed to the left speaker.  I will try playing with toe in and the couch a few weeks as I am afraid to move the speakers right now as they have such a great sound.  I am not sure my heart could handle any more sound improvement right now anyway!   

You have given me even more things to play with and specific things to look for.  Thanks a lot! 

Bob

[Teedius]

Hi, just want to check something with this setup - it mentions to switch off the sub at the start.  A few sites mention having amp set to small speakers and set sub for direct, so bass isn't really going to the mains.  Does this mean I should be reconfiguring amp to pass bass to the mains, until placement is at it's best, then turn it back off?

[stvnharr]

Hi, just want to check something with this setup - it mentions to switch off the sub at the start.  A few sites mention having amp set to small speakers and set sub for direct, so bass isn't really going to the mains.  Does this mean I should be reconfiguring amp to pass bass to the mains, until placement is at it's best, then turn it back off?

You are trying to get the best/smoothest bass out of the main speakers.  The subwoofer does not contribute to this and should not be on.

BTW, you might want to use the directions in the following link rather than those in my write ups:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=215930&highlight=Master+Set&r=