[DTB300]

Okay so let’s run with this idea of delivered quality. Lets say the only thing I  switch in my system is a high end amplifier (big dollars $$$$), and a mid-fi amp (mid dollars $$), both claim to put our 500 watts. I pulled the specs on both, I don’t understand them however maybe some of you do. The question is would I hear a difference in quality?

It is not a YES or NO answer.  With audio each of us perceives what sounds good for a certain cost.  Spec's do not mean a thing in how an amp will sound, just like the cost.

Try and listen to some amps available, you can then decide on what you like within your budget, not what it costs, and not what others like. 

It is really that simple.

[planet10]

Watts = Current x Voltage,

This brings up a point not covered yet.

The formula above is only true if the speaker is a pure resistance. This is how rated power is measured but speakers do not resemble resistors in reality (if you are multiampling, there are some speakers (ie ribbon tweeters) that resemble an R).

The real formula is power = current x voltage x cos(phase difference). Note that if the phase angle gets to 90 degrees the amplifier is unable to deliver any power (a situation approached by some ESL speakers) In a constant voltage amplifier as the phase angle gets larger, the current required to deliver the same power goes up (if it is a constant current amp swith voltage for current).

Into a real loudspeaker, the ability to deliver this extra current (or voltage) determines how much power the amplifier can really deliver. This largely comes down to how big the power supply is.

Another factor is how well does an amplifier recover from clipping (ie running out of power supply). The reality is that most amplifiers clip under real world circumstances. One the clips gracefully and recovers with finese will sound like it has more power than one that doesn't.

A real world example of all this was a test we did in the late 70s between an NAD 3020 (20W rated) & the 1st generation of Carver Cube (200W rated). Driving a set of Magnepan SMG (a pretty resistive speaker), the Cube set into audible clipping before the NAD -- ie into a real world load the 20W amp was bigger than the 200W amp.

These 2 points don't come close to covering everything about an amplifier's sonics, but do point out 2 easily understood reasons why a small (rated) amplifier can have more power than a higher rated one.

dave

[cujobob]

I believe an amp's measurements should tell you exactly how it will sound if you test for the right things.  We have a very limited understanding of amps and speakers IMHO.  Wattage doesn't tell you all that much.

[planet10]

I believe an amp's measurements should tell you exactly how it will sound if you test for the right things.

Unfortunately the right things are mostly unknown...

dave

[zybar]

I believe an amp's measurements should tell you exactly how it will sound if you test for the right things.  We have a very limited understanding of amps and speakers IMHO.  Wattage doesn't tell you all that much.

What exactly are the "right things"?

George

[planet10]

What exactly are the "right things"?

If i knew i'd be rich. I do know that most of the measures you do see have little bearing on the sound.

dave

[doorman]

Wasn't it Julian Hirsch (sp?) who back in the day was reputed to audition equipment by measuring, not by listening?
Don

[darredon]

Lots of good feedback you guy's, thanks for the insight. It would be interesting to hear what amps you guys have owned that you did not like. My amp? I got into this audio thing about 8 years ago. I worked for a doctor who owned a pair of VAC monoblocks and some Aerial Acoustics speakers. I was so impressed with his system about five years ago I bought a VAC Avatar Super 80 Watts/Channel Ultalinear. Since then I’ve been happy with the sound the VAC produces. The reason I asked the question is because I don't know much about electronics and everything inside amplifiers. I just read a bunch of reviews and stuff and try to understand what makes one better than the other. From your feedback it sounds like it depends on your taste and budget.

As for me I think I’m a middle of the road kind of guy. I value getting the most bang for your buck. I think the big $$$$$ big dollars in audio equipment might get you front and center to the stage but for me, I can feel and hear the music just fine from my 20 rows back seat at half the cost.     

[TONEPUB]

I believe an amp's measurements should tell you exactly how it will sound if you test for the right things.  We have a very limited understanding of amps and speakers IMHO.  Wattage doesn't tell you all that much.

Call all the top amplifiers and offer to sell them what you know for big bucks, because none of them have figured
out a testing protocol that tells how an amplifier would sound.  Stop wasting your time here....

[cujobob]

Sorry if my post came off as if I knew what to test for because quite simply, I don't.  There's been interesting discussion on another forum about what to test for regarding speakers and which measurements are actually important to how the speaker will sound (one good similar discussion can be found here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=91649ae59a57f4b935a935cbaaff531a&threadid=139046 )

There's a lot of evidence to believe the way we've been designing speakers for years has ignored many of the most important issues.  The same could be said for amp design.  I believe 'synergy' between components is explainable and something we can figure out before purchasing/borrowing gear and testing it out.


Tonepub:  Nice response.  I stated an opinion, this is a forum.  It happens.

[cujobob]

What exactly are the "right things"?

If i knew i'd be rich. I do know that most of the measures you do see have little bearing on the sound.

dave

I completely agree.

[Big Red Machine]

I have had about 10 different amps through the room in the last 2 years.  Not many of them reminded me of another in sound so much that I thought of any one as a cloan of another.  But some were similar, and most were different in their response throught the speakers.  All of them were over 200 wpc.  It's all about synergy and that item can't be found on the spec list.  Dang!

Some amps make you feel like they strain to make any sound come out and some are effortless.  Some have great bass, others have only a great midrange.  Some make the top end unbearable like dog whistles.

[Niteshade]

Nothing else in the world matters except your ears. Since two amps with the same specifications can sound totally different, my observation is a fact. Specifications are necessary to read in order to see if the amplifier is going to be compatible within your system. They provide absolutely NO guarantees you will like the amp's delivery qualities.

The best you can hope for is a consensus of opinion on how something sounds and works. Always keep in mind what equipment and musical tastes the reviewer possesses before forming solid opinions for yourself.

BTW: There could be two people listening in the same room to the exact same thing. One will hate it and the other will love it. What does that tell us? Let's say they both have a good ear as well. It boils down to backgrounds and tastes.

That starts us off a square 1 again and my belief that YOUR ears are all that matter. 

[BillB]

A couple other things to think about:

1) If the 20% parts cost to total part ratio is followed the Mc will have $2200 in components inside while the Emotiva will have $199 in components.

If you are a parts geek you can appreciate the better spec'd components. I have never heard of a cap exploding in a Mcintosh.

2) Mcs are built in the USA. Let's say both amps take 100 hours to build (highly unlikely but just roll with it) at even $10 an hour you're looking at $1k in labor vs. probably $10-50 in China but lets say $100 just for giggles.

You can buy a 20-30 year old McIntosh and still pay a couple grand. You can buy a 2 year old Emotiva for $300. Will you even see Emotiva amps in 20-30 years or will some poor 3rd world country have piles of them scavenging parts for pennies?

So we have $3300 into the Mcintosh and $299 into the Emotiva.

And I am sure many many other costs including dealers, sales people, media etc.

[doug s.]

IMO the more expensive amplifier is likely the excel over the cheaper amp in subtleties such as timbral accuracy, lower levels of grain, better low frequency performance, greater transparency, greater detail, better soundstaging and image placement, etc.  Whether or not an individual is willing to spend the extra money depends on what they value in their music playback and whether they can even hear the differences.  I own/have owned both modestly priced and kilobuck high end equipment.  Both types have sounded pretty good, but I find the more expensive stuff to just have that extra little bit of refinement that I value. 

sorry, but it sounds to me like you are assuming that because you think the $$$$ amp has "mcintosh" on its front, and that $$ amp has "emotiva" on its front, that the $$$$ amp will have better - "timbral accuracy", less grain, better low end, transparency, detail, blah blah.  why?  cuz it's more expensive?  cuz it says "mcintosh" on it?  what a load.  unless you have listened to darredon's system and know his room, there is no way his hypothetical question can be answered, regardless of mfr, regardless of price.  even regardless of looking at the two spec sheets of each amp.  and, even knowing darredon's room/system, it's likely only a listening test would reveal the proper answer.  in my experience, price doesn't always determine sound quality.  many "cheap" amps sound fantastic, especially if paired w/the right speakers.  then, spend extra money elsewhere in your system - ie: room treatment, better source components, better preamp, etc, and you will be far more likely to notice the improvements "timbral accuracy", etc, then by swapping out $$ amp for $$$$ amp.

but, do i have my own biases as well?  absolutely, tho they are not based on how much something costs.  when i started reading this thread, i was wondering about darredon's system.  then, towards the end, he reveals he's using an 80wpc vac avatar super.  so, because of my biases, i would wager that what he is using now will sound better than either of the two amps he lists, regardless of speaker or room.  (unless he's driving some difficult speaker that drops down to 1 ohm, or something.)  why?  because a quality tube amp will be better than s/s, and 80w of tube power should be enough for most speakers.  that's my bias.   

[doug s.]

...Okay so let’s run with this idea of delivered quality. Lets say the only thing I  switch in my system is a high end amplifier (big dollars $$$$), and a mid-fi amp (mid dollars $$), both claim to put our 500 watts. I pulled the specs on both, I don’t understand them however maybe some of you do. The question is would I hear a difference in quality? The second question is if there is a difference does the cost difference really warrant the price difference? I understand that’s a matter of opinion based on your own criteria for your system, but really do I get that much more quality if I buy the $$$$ over the $$?  

Darrendon,
You seem to want an answer, so the answer is: yes and no!

Question #1.
In your system you would not hear a difference. However, in my system I most certainly would.

Question #2.
In your system the cost difference does not warrant the price difference (whatever that means).
But, in my system the cost difference does warrant the price difference!

Now you have some answers that will certainly simplify matters.

If it doesn't, then perhaps your questions were altogether too vague and generalized, not to mention that they call for a conclusion related entirely to personal preferences and taste. Please note that we haven't even addressed what constitutes the rest of your system, your budget, your listening space and the type of music that you'll be playing.

Best Regards,
TerryO

terry, you say:
Question #1.
In your system you would not hear a difference. However, in my system I most certainly would.

Question #2.
In your system the cost difference does not warrant the price difference (whatever that means).
But, in my system the cost difference does warrant the price difference!

are you yust posing a hypothetical here?  because i do not see how you can come to either conclusion, based upon the info presented.  even if you know which amps are being discussed, unless you have heard them in both your and darredon's system, how do you know? 

thanks,

doug s.

[Big Red Machine]

I much preferred the Wyred amps over the big Pass Lab amp I had.  The Emotiva I had was "okay" in what it delivered but I clipped it often and it really didn't do anything for the low end like the Wyreds do.

As said here. you need to auditon to see if YOU like the sound.  It's not up to us.

[darredon]

I like BillB explanation, I also like doug S. candor. As I mentioned when I asked this question a friend of mine at work is a real bargain kind of guy. He’s in the market for a new amp. He’s been asking me what is the difference between the $$$$ amps and the $ , or the $$ amps. I couldn’t answer the question convincingly so I posed the question to my fellow audio circle members who always come through with real honest advice. He’s been reading the post and I’ll talk to him today to see what he thinks. I do believe there are a number of variables but as I mentioned I’ve been happy with the VAC Avatar Super. She’s like a good wife. She always treats me good and has dinner hot and ready for me when I get home.  I sometimes look at the new young amps coming out, I read all the rave about their performance and I have to admit that I catch myself thinking “maybe I can do better”?    However like dougS alluded to I like what I like and for me I like coming home to the same old hot meal every night .

Thanks for your feedback Big Red. My friend was interested in buying the Emotiva amps. Sounds like you gave them a try.


Current system

GamuT Audio CD3
VAC Avatar Super
Von Schweikert VR-1 & VR-S/1 Subwoofer
Speaker Wire Xindak
Interconnects Aural Symphonics AS-One
Nite II & Acoustic Revive power cords
Pioneer PL-115D Turntable
Pioneer TX-8100 Radio

[RJ]

Watts = Current x Voltage,

This brings up a point not covered yet.

The formula above is only true if the speaker is a pure resistance. This is how rated power is measured but speakers do not resemble resistors in reality (if you are multiampling, there are some speakers (ie ribbon tweeters) that resemble an R).

The real formula is power = current x voltage x cos(phase difference). Note that if the phase angle gets to 90 degrees the amplifier is unable to deliver any power (a situation approached by some ESL speakers) In a constant voltage amplifier as the phase angle gets larger, the current required to deliver the same power goes up (if it is a constant current amp swith voltage for current).

Into a real loudspeaker, the ability to deliver this extra current (or voltage) determines how much power the amplifier can really deliver. This largely comes down to how big the power supply is.

Another factor is how well does an amplifier recover from clipping (ie running out of power supply). The reality is that most amplifiers clip under real world circumstances. One the clips gracefully and recovers with finese will sound like it has more power than one that doesn't.

A real world example of all this was a test we did in the late 70s between an NAD 3020 (20W rated) & the 1st generation of Carver Cube (200W rated). Driving a set of Magnepan SMG (a pretty resistive speaker), the Cube set into audible clipping before the NAD -- ie into a real world load the 20W amp was bigger than the 200W amp.

These 2 points don't come close to covering everything about an amplifier's sonics, but do point out 2 easily understood reasons why a small (rated) amplifier can have more power than a higher rated one.

dave

I think that was the most lucid description of amplifier power I have ever heard! Excellent!

Ron

[cujobob]

A couple other things to think about:

1) If the 20% parts cost to total part ratio is followed the Mc will have $2200 in components inside while the Emotiva will have $199 in components.

If you are a parts geek you can appreciate the better spec'd components. I have never heard of a cap exploding in a Mcintosh.

2) Mcs are built in the USA. Let's say both amps take 100 hours to build (highly unlikely but just roll with it) at even $10 an hour you're looking at $1k in labor vs. probably $10-50 in China but lets say $100 just for giggles.

You can buy a 20-30 year old McIntosh and still pay a couple grand. You can buy a 2 year old Emotiva for $300. Will you even see Emotiva amps in 20-30 years or will some poor 3rd world country have piles of them scavenging parts for pennies?

So we have $3300 into the Mcintosh and $299 into the Emotiva.

And I am sure many many other costs including dealers, sales people, media etc.

Engineering/design is certainly the most critical aspect, no matter the parts cost.  Many well regarded amps do not use expensive parts.  Don't get me wrong, I believe McIntosh offers a high quality product, just saying that your logic doesn't necessarily translate to higher quality sound IMHO.