[whubbard]

My Orion/GK-1/Lifeforce system is, well, spectacular. There are a few more minor tweeks to get done (find exact position for Orions, try and play with grounding, there is still a teeny-tiny bit of hum at full volume...I also need to put the Peter Daniel DAC in a case) However, I'm looking forward towards my next big project.

A turntable.

I have been slowly collecting parts for this:
Teres Bearing
Teres Clamp
Pete Riggle VTAF & Counterweight
Maxon Motor
Mark Kelly Controller

I will be using my current RB250, and just modifying it a bit. I'll keep everyone informed once this really gets going. I'm going to try and do a better job of taking photos during the building process. It's really a Teres clone, but I'm hoping it turns out nice. I'm a big fan of wood, and I can actually build things made of wood. With metal I'm not so good, I've been told a million times aluminum is just like wood, but my nice tools are not going anywhere near aluminum.

Here is the CAD mock-up:


The image is going to big...I'll resize it in a bit.

Here are some specifics on the construction:
Platter:
Wood - Birds Eye Maple
Construction - Filled with lead shot.
Size - A bit over 12", with a soft edge on the outside, and an indent in the middle.

Plinth:
Wood -Mahogany or Cherry (Undecided)
Construction - Again, Filled with lead shot.
Size - area under platter will be the same size as the plater, with tangents over to the smaller circle, where the armboard will be mounted.

Armboard:
Wood - Same as Plinth
Construction: Will be bolted down. Bolt might be sunk in, and covered with a removable piece of wood.
Size - semi-circles on both sides, with radii the same as the edge of the plinth.

Motor House:
Wood - Same as plinth
Construction - Hollow with mounting plate on top, and cover on the bottom. A small flat section on the side for mounting the power connector. (Nuetrix). The bottom will then be filled with led shot to give it mass.

Motor Controller:
(Not shown)
Wood - Undecided, probably the same as the plinth.
Construction - Simple box, will have the 12V 18AH battery inside.

-West

[AKSA]

Nice plans, West, carefully thought through.        Do you know Mark Kelly lives down the way from me, about 50 miles away, and I first came upon him at a local engineering shop where he was having parts of a turntable made up?

They do my front panels for the Soraya, what a coincidence!   

Cheers,

Hugh

[Felipe]

Wes,

First let me apologize if i seem to deviate your subject, but i thought i'd post here, providing you are (i believe) the latest Orion/AKSA owner and can also contribute to some opinions on the matter.
Congratulations on your achievement are in order, you have been busy my friend, not many do so much in so litle time....and so well !!!

I have been a aspen gear owner for quite some time, and always loved them. I own a GK1, a 100Nirvana and a 55Lifeforce. My obsession in diy audio is "kindly" hinting towards a new set of speakers...and Orion have always been on my mind. But nothing comes free, in this case cheap, and not all share the same opinion. In fact, from what i gather there are some that criticize the Orion being a fuziness speaker, too airy and un-engaging. I never read about the electronics used with the Orion's and i believe i HAS to matter....but SL says it doesn't.

I know there are a few Orion owners on this forum...and combine it with Aspen gear. That would be my case also...so my question fits here. Does it matter? Is it worth it ? Anybody here compared the Orion to the All New SUMMA ? I know its a completly different aproach, but i keep seeing them compared !!!?

I should say why i am searching for new speakers. I have profound respect for ProAc speakers. I own a pair of Response 2S and they are wonderfull. They can sing acoustics, jazz and vocals like no other. What i miss is essentialy bass and impact....they just cannot fill a 80m2 room. And also...they will only sing with the best of the recorded material. Any medium quality CD will sound...just medium.

My perfect speaker would be a ProAc floorstander, that beeing something like the D25 or D38. Unfortunatly i cannot afford 7000€ of speaker outright. I don't know if someone compared these speakers to the known designs mentioned here...

So Orion owners, what do you miss in your setup ? Do you think it has enough heart to fill a 80m2 room?

Hugh, knowing that you heard Orions more than once...can you compare them to your own design ?

Thank you
Felipe

[AKSA]

Felipe,

This is where I must cast modesty aside, and tell it how I see it.

I love the concept of the Orion.  Acoustically, they are superb.  But the electronics, IMHO, lets it down.

The problem is one of engagement.  It's wonderful, clean sound, but to me it is not music.  You cannot measure engagement, and it's such a hopelessly subjective quality that opinions will be necessarily heated on the matter.

Perhaps a good friend's advice is appropriate.  He has the Phoenix, with AKSA modules driving them.  He recently listened to the VSonics, and felt that they were intensely musical.  Bass not quite as good as the Orion, but more musical.  My opinion is the same as his.

If you want flawless, perfect sound, go for the Orions.  If you want music, with some deficiencies in bass due to an 8" driver but almost completely compensated by that transcendental transmission line bass, go for the VSonics.

But then, Felipe, you are as shrewd as the next man, you knew I'd say this?  The difference is that I actually believe it fervently!!   

Cheers,

Hugh

[whubbard]

Felipe,
I have no problem discussing this here. I personally love the Orions. I have tried them with a few other preamps, and I must say I do like them with the GK-1 (with tubes, I have tried with no tubes as well). The Orions do present what is given to them, and they present it perfectly. I think that if you have a good source and some good music, you will really enjoy them. I understand what Hugh might be getting at my saying they are not 'musical' enough, but IMHO I feel they are. Especially when used with a tube preamp like the GK-1. I personally feel that speakers are the most important part of the system to be linear in response. Like I said, adding tubes is one thing, but I don't want my speakers messing with my recording. It may seem slightly paradoxical, but it is just how I feel.

The other benefit to the Orions is that they are really simple speakers in some ways. Position and room treatments don't matter as much, which is a huge benefit for them. They also have a much larger sweetspot.

For background music I think it's fine to have a simple 'musical' pair of speakers, but when I really sit down to listen, I am very glad I picked the Orions. They just have a certain pristine presence that I feel is unbeatable.

-West

EDIT: Maybe Peter (PSP) will have something to say as well.

[Sparkie]

Hi Guys,

If you want an exceptional bass extention to the Aspen VSonic speakers there will be a transmissionline speaker with a 12" driver available in kit form soon. See Hugh about this for further details. The new woofer provides a seamless bass, utterly musical extension to the VSonics right down to the low 20Hz range without the slightest hint of doofieness even at a volume that raises hell in the neighbourhood. Even kick drums and electric bass guitar sound live in the listening room and oh, playing a good quality pipe organ CD transports one right into a cathedral. You can really feel instruments as if they are being played right in front of you, right through from live levels to very low volume. All powered by Hugh's exceptional Maya amp. The Aspen system IMHO rivals systems costing many thousands of dollars more without a doubt.

have fun,

Sparkie.

[PSP]

Hi Philippe,
Two things:

1.  Try to hear Orions and spend some time with them if you can. 

2.  Every time Hugh has recommended a change to my Aspen gear, he has been right, and in spades.  He has my absolute trust.  IME when he has suggested that a tweak might add 2 points (out of ten) to my system, I've ususally heard a 3-4 point improvement.  In my experience, Hugh has never overstated or over-promised the sonic impact of his gear.

That said, I am extremely happy with my Orions (the electronics is powered with Hugh's power supply which was a big improvement over the stocker) and I won't be changing speakers anytime soon, if ever.  I will be tweaking the GK-1, I may someday upgrade my amps to Hugh's latest, I will definitely remove the output caps from my Audiosector DAC... but mostly I will listen to a lot of music and think kind thoughts about Hugh's marvelous designs.

When I listen (source is a nothing special Denon CDP --> Audiosector DAC-->GK1 more-or-less Platinum--> Orion ASP (with Hugh's power supply) --> (LF 25 platinum on Tweets, LF 55 platinum on Mids, 100N+ on woofs) the music sounds real to me, with no reasonable SPL limits... I've always turned the volume down because my ears hurt, not because I hear distortion.  Of course, this requires four reasonably excellent (Aspen) stereo amps. 

I have not heard Hugh's Vsonics so there is no way I can compare.  When I listen to other systems though, as much as I might enjoy what I hear from them, I don't have the feeling that "this is so damn close to reality" that I get with the Orions.

The sum of all these posts:  you really can't make a bad choice here, so relax and enjoy your predicament.

Good luck, and have fun,
Peter

[Felipe]

Wes, Peter and Hugh thank you for your thoughts. 

It's not easy to listen to Orion or Vsonics as i believe there isn't any near by. Maybe some Vsonic somewhere in Europe??

Nevertheless, i do trust Hugh's feelings, and i had seen him criticize the Orion electronics...designing an active speaker with such a current demand on the woofers seems a bit odd.
 

Engaging sound (whatever that means) is an important issue to address in a speaker. That is why i stick with ProAc sound for so many years. I have heard other commercial products that have more slam, bass authority and are easier to drive....but they only play sound....not music.
So that is my fear on the Orion....blame it on the electronics?? I was hoping that a decent PS unit on the ASP, together with aspen amps should do the trick....

Hugh...on the side note... and sorry for the sincerity ... the Vsonics are far from the greatest WAF speaker.  . I assume the dimensions are strictly dued to sound performance, but couldnt it be done a litle taller ? I find them rather short and fat...

Best regards,
Filipe

[whubbard]

Filipe,

According to the Linkwitz lab website, there have been builders in Portugal, but I'm not sure if SL can give you their details. Might be worth asking to see if you can arrange a meeting.

I hope I didn't mislead you, but the Orions are truely engaging. The sound is so wonderful, you just want to keep listening. It is like listening live. If you are going for something other than really, live sound, then maybe the Orions aren't for you. But if you want to feel like your at a concert...Orions.

On the electronics side, I've packed my board with Sonicap Gen Is & IIs, and some RTX caps. This is all thanks to Philip and Peters dedication and their trial and error. Luckily I was just able to fill the board, and not spend days & months comparing. I did initially build it with SL's parts list, but even before hearing it, got the upgrade bug  . At this point, I'm not even sure I have one part that SL specified, even my Op-Amps are different. Obviously the values are all the same though. The Op-Amps are actually the only thing that I am personally going through to find the right fit for me. I, like Peter, have Hugh's PS.

I would personally rather own a product backed by Hugh, as he really is such a helpful guy, but in this situation, I feel the Orions will be hard to beat. Maybe in the future I will get to hear the Vsonics, and then I can offer a true comparison. But for now, I can only explain how my Orions sound.

-West

p.s. I have the Orion+ in case you're wondering.

[AKSA]

West,

Try listening to your Orions WITHOUT the trick supply.  See what you think then!   

The power supply is, in fact, the problem.

Cheers,

Hugh

[whubbard]

Hugh,
I actually do think I will give that a shot. Luckily it's one of the easier things for me to compare.
Would it be a bad idea to A/B them live with a switch?

I doubt the Orion will sound bad without the supply, but I do assume they sound better with it.

-West

[AKSA]

Yes, West, A/B it, no question that's the best way......

And you will find a big difference, chiefly in the area of engagement.  You will be very surprised, actually.

However, I'm not producing that supply any more, so I should make that clear to anyone interested.

Felipe,

We tried other profiles for the VSonics.  Wives did not agree.  They settled unanimously on the present profile, not least because it was a 'two vase speaker cabinet'. 

And it's NOT fat at all!!  Not true at all!  Heck, it's only 9" wide, scarcely wider than the driver!!


Cheers,

Hugh

[Tliner]

Hi Filipe,

As the VSonic speakers are basically a DIY speaker you can very easily make them taller to suit your desires. While keeping the internal dimensions unaltered a builder only has to make the side,front and rear panels longer and cut out one small false floor to attain the desired height of the speaker. The present VSonic height was determined after three prototypes were built with various heights. The first was 1200mm (4') high, the second about 930mm (3') high and the final 830mm (32") high and only 230mm (9") wide. The designs were passed past one of Australia's eminent industrial designers and he chose the smallest design as the most visually pleasing. The tall VSonic definitely drew an extremely antagonistic WAF comments by many women as far too tall, overpowering, dominating etc in the average listening room. By the way there was no discernable sound difference between any of the three prototypes. Design three is the easiest to build for a DIY builder.

Everything is a compromise!

Tliner.

[Felipe]

Tliner,

I can't seem to understand (with my limited knowledge in speaker design) how one could change the front plate size, that being the part where the drivers fit and also the vent, without changing the response curve of it !?
A simple LsCad drawing tells you that it matters. Not only internal dimensions. Also...i believe the height of the drivers to the floor is decisive also...so i just cannot understand how you state "there are no differences" between a 120cm and 83cm tall skpeaker !

Again...a 32" high speaker with 9" wide is not fat ? I would say a correct proportion would be at least 40" tall. No less. It is a matter of taste of course...but also a logic aesthetics. I belive 83cm high will seem just like the wifes stated....a vase sitter !!!! But it all comes to where you put it. You can't put a 45" tall speaker in a 15m2 room. And it would seem like a fish out of water for a 32"x9" in a 80m2.
Personally i have a very large and high room. I am not a fan of short box speakers...maybe it's possible to take a look at the 1200mm prototype ?

Best regards,
Filipe

[AKSA]

Felipe,

You are right, but it's a matter of degree.  The differences are subtle, detectable in AB testing.

We chose the speaker on looks, wishing to make it as unobtrusive as possible for higher WAF.  I would say this has been successful, as the dreaded response so often is, 'I'm not having that in my living room' and we have to live with these denizens of domesticity (thankfully!).

Once the dimensions of the transmission line are set, and the effectiveness gauged with pressure testing at different frequencies, the majority of the grosser differences in a speaker are in the driver choice and the crossover, particularly the Xover.  We did find that the last enclosure we developed gave slightly tighter, more articulate bass, so going larger was contradindicated.

However, new box shapes require a complete new set of instructions, and that's a two month job I can't do at present because I'm up to my neck in new amp development.  Why not simply build out the box with a stand?

Sorry for my cheeky response!!

Cheers,

Hugh

[Felipe]

Laurie,

To your belief, the current Vsonic can be made with exactly the same inner dimensions and lets say 250mm taller (creating a false?) If yes...where would you put it, up side or down side ?

As i see it, both have issues :

Top side false : Messes up front bafle layout, making the drivers appear at the middle of the speaker.

Bottom side false : The port appears 250mm from the ground and the drivers are 250mm further up.
This seems to be what you sugested ?

Either way...the front bafle is changed in height...should the XO be ajusted?

Best regards,
Filipe

[whubbard]

Hugh & Filipe,

What if you were to just put the TL on a raised platform? Or just pull down the side walls and the back, and then add a front. It would leave the opening of the TL raised from the ground (and I'm not sure if this causes problems), but the internal dimensions wouldn't be changed. Wouldn't this sound essentially the same? (This is what Filipe was suggesting with 'Bottom side false') Not sure why the XO would have to be adjusted, just because the speaker is now on a stand.

You could also adjust your listening chair to be level with the tweeters.

-West

[Tliner]

Hi Filipe & West,

Thanks for your interest in speaker design.

If you make the speaker exterior panels longer you would be in effect raising the speaker. The drivers would be the same measurement down from the top of the enclosure and so would be the bottom plynth which would then be inside the extended sides. A new bottom plynth for the speaker to stand on would have to be made. Fill up the bottom cavity with dry sand and that will add to stability and remember weight feels very expensive. The bass port would then also be X higher. Now to cover a higher bass port you simply extend the speaker grill all the way down the front to cover it or simply make a small grill to cover the port. The xo would not have to be altered if this approach to increase height was followed. There are many ways to alter a speaker correctly. But also there is many ways to make a lot of firewood.

Some well known speaker manufacturers perform this trick and charge many $K more for the taller model.

BTW another factor that decided the height of the VSonics is that the drivers are at about the listeners ear height when sitting in an average lounge chair.

Remember, the VSonics are a DIY speaker which allows the builder some licence but DONOT alter the internal dimensions or driver positioning or width of the front panel.

Have fun,

Laurie.

[whubbard]

BTW another factor that decided the height of the VSonics is that the drivers are at about the listeners ear height when sitting in an average lounge chair.

Remember, the VSonics are a DIY speaker which allows the builder some licence but DONOT alter the internal dimensions or driver positioning or width of the front panel.

That is what a figured, Thanks Laurie.

Filipe, Were you able to find out who has the Orion's in Portugal?

-West

[Felipe]

Laurie,

Thank you for your time and attention, it is truly a pleasure to see such great feedback. I apreciate it very much. Hugh himself speaks very well of you, so maybe i shouldnt be surprised to find such polite answers.

I hope i am not over my head, but i am still intrigued of what it can be done with the Vsonic design. I do not wish you to reveal all the secrets in an open arena, but perhaps you can raise your thoughts once more...

Do you think the flare port can be adjusted so it forwards sideways or back ?  I am almost certain i am getting a No No answer on this..... .
Looking at the cad drawing in Hugh's website, i suspect it would need re-design of the TL vent, inner proportions and a new study of sound pressure, etc...so a simple Yes or No answer is fine as is not my intent to ask for free studies .  Of course a Yes answer would leave me more intrigued 

Wes,
Not yet. Emailing Mr. Siegfried as we speak.

Best regards,
Filipe