Junk under the electronics......

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jrtrent

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Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #20 on: 1 Mar 2009, 01:51 pm »
Yes, I like a nice sturdy purch for things, but this butcher block under the power amp stuff really makes me go, "Huh". What do you guys think?

I've heard the best results in my system by going light and rigid.  The idea is to decouple the equipment from vibration, and support that is light and rigid will isolate and dissipate the energy from vibrations whereas massive supports tend to store and re-transmit it.  As others have mentioned, I hear the most difference in turntable support, and mine always sit on either a dedicated turntable stand (I use one from the Sound Organisation with an after-market shelf by Greater Ranges, now sadly out of business due to retirement of the owner) or an isolation platform designed to decouple the turntable when it needs to sit on a more massive shelving unit.

charmerci

Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #21 on: 2 Mar 2009, 04:37 am »
Here's Frank's take on all of this. (I don't think you'll mind the link or I'll delete it.)

It starts halfway down the first column of page 27 - starting with the "TIP-TOES" paragraph.

Oop. My bad  :oops: - been away from the computer too.

http://avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/ab_pdf/ab1986.pdf

KS

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Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #22 on: 2 Mar 2009, 05:33 am »
OK, most all of us agree speakers need to be coupled to the floor.
Not exactly.  Herbie's Big Fat Dots do a superb job for me.

Regarding the type of wood, Mapleshade has some info on why they chose Eastern hard maple for their equipment platforms.
http://mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/platformsampstands_hub.php.  I can confirm that MDF sounds horrible under a speaker on spikes, and that Ikea Lack tables do a very good job of damping vibrations for my equipment.

More about vibration isolation under electronics:
http://www.audiophilia.com/wp/?p=788

laserman

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Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #23 on: 2 Mar 2009, 04:58 pm »
OK, most all of us agree speakers need to be coupled to the floor. This is where spikes are used, not under equipment!...

I am not in this camp at all.  I decouple all my speakers with great results.  In my experience, the key is to have a way to absorb the vibration from the speaker into a base that is then decouple from the floor.  This ends up becoming a sandwiched/layered design.  YMMV, so please don't generalize that most of "us" agree blah blah blah anything because "we" don't.

I have also found that decoupling TT's and cdp's to be of great benefit.

Peace and later,
Lou

BobM

Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #24 on: 2 Mar 2009, 05:19 pm »
As my system has progressed and become more resolving I have found that "everything" makes a difference. Notice I said difference; not always an improvement. The only way you will know is to try it for yourself. Put it in, pull it out and see what you think. Then do the Hokey Pokey and turn yourself around.  :roll:

Different strokes, 'ya know.

Bob

dB Cooper

Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #25 on: 3 Mar 2009, 12:37 am »
Then do the Hokey Pokey and turn yourself around.  :roll:

Bob
That's what it's all about??!?  :lol:

Bill

Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #26 on: 3 Mar 2009, 01:42 am »
Maryland maple "sounds" better than Canadian rock maple says the literature of Mapleshade Audio Products. Really? Does their competitor use Canadian rock maple? And we all know how bad that sounds! And what is exactly rock maple. I have never heard the term. And how does wood "sound" exactly. I can understand the phenomenon of dampening characteristics of different kinds of wood. Sometimes I get tired of this unscientific posturing by pseudo high end companies. You really have to suspend belief to buy into this nonsense. Anyway, thanks for putting up with my rant; I guess I'm getting old and cynical.

Bill

satfrat

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Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #27 on: 3 Mar 2009, 02:02 am »
I see on other circles, people spend all kinds of money on junk they put under their electronics. I just can't understand why. Yes, I like a nice sturdy purch for things, but this butcher block under the power amp stuff really makes me go, "Huh". What do you guys think?

Wayner

I think a thread title like this makes it sound like it's being made by an uninformed person who wants to make generalized comments instead of finding out for himself what can work or not work, depending on one's own personal audio preference. Like BobM stated, everything can make a difference, what works and what doesn't is strictly personal preference in my book and can't be generalized as junk. Someone's junk is anothers treasure and vice versa. It's what makes audio an individual hobby. :thumb:

I like Audiopoints myself under both my components and loudspeakers as I feel it brings out the detail while coupling devices tend to soften the sound,,,, that's my preference, it doesn't make it right or wrong. :thumb:

Cheers,
Robin

Wayner

Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #28 on: 3 Mar 2009, 02:11 am »
Either an uniformed person or someone that hasn't been brainwashed.

Wayner

satfrat

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Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #29 on: 3 Mar 2009, 02:23 am »
Either an uniformed person or someone that hasn't been brainwashed.

Wayner

That sounds about right,,,, :lol:


Cheers,
Robin

zybar

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Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #30 on: 3 Mar 2009, 02:30 am »
Either an uniformed person or someone that hasn't been brainwashed.

Wayner

So will you try ANY of the simple experiments I suggested?

George

avahifi

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Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #31 on: 3 Mar 2009, 03:25 pm »
My take on vibration control is that the ONLY thing that should be moving in an audio system is the driven speaker cones and the air the are designed to push around (allright, also the stylus assembly).

I also suggest it probably most cost effective to locate and fix worse case problems first.

The purpose of any sound control material and its use should be to minimize the acoustic output of anything that is not supposed to have sonic output.

Regarding microphonic output from electronic components, the easy test is to turn the volume up with nothing playing and tap on their covers.  If you can hear anything coming from the speakers, that device probably needs help, if not then it is probably not your worst case problem.  In general, solid state equipment microphonics will not be worse case problems, although large soft film wound capacitors of the Magic cap ilk can be surprisingly microphonic, as bad as a signal tube in some cases. With tube equipment we try to pick the least microphonic tubes we can find and they usually pass the "tap test".  I should note that I have heard no substantial improvement here even trying expensive tube dampers.  I suspect they are not working at the resonant frequency of the microphonics.

I am suspect of hard coupling loudspeakers into wood floors with spikes.  I wonder if that is just not turning the floor, or shelf, into a large sounding board.  It might change the sound, but not necessarily for the better.  Hard coupling into a really stiff surface, such as a concrete floor under a thick rug likely is a good idea though.

The loudspeaker is simply a large linear motor used as a vibration generator.  Given Newtons' Laws, it makes sense to make the cabinet as massive and inert as practical so that the energy into the motor is used to move air, not move the cabinet.  I have heard Magnapans, for example, distinctly improve when the top of the panels was hard braced into the ceiling or back wall.  Again, a very heavy padded concrete block on top of big bookshelf speakers made an easily audible sonic improvement when idea was demonstrated to me.

Going back to Newton, it is very hard to take seriously the notion that tiny little expensive "dingleberrys" would have any meaningful effect on room acoustics.

Damping material works by transforming mechanical vibration energy into heat energy.  The materials should be as inert as possible to work properly, using the "meatballs don't bounce" theory.

Regarding room acoustics, the goal is to come as close as you can to making the room go away completely within practical reason.  The room should be very stiff to support good bass without the surfaces flexing and booming. At higher frequency the room should be acoustically dead.  We want to hear the acoustics of the performance and your room was not there when the recording was made.  Any reflections from your room surfaces are wrong.  Of course we can't completely kill the room, but we can assume that the worse offenders are going to be the surfaces closest to the speakers - - - the walls behind the speakers, and the floor and ceiling close by.  Obviously hard reflective surfaces need to be tamed.  In my own sound room I turned a horrible sounding suburban "box" into a very nice quiet and useful listening area by the use of thick carpet, acoustic fabric on the walls, and thin Sonex foam panels on the ceiling.  Total cost was about $2000.  That much spent on better equipment in the original room would have been useless.

Anyway have fun and remember the main rule - - -  meatballs don't bounce.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

turkey

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Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #32 on: 3 Mar 2009, 04:37 pm »

Anyway have fun and remember the main rule - - -  meatballs don't bounce.

The ones they served in the Army sure did. :)

charmerci

Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #33 on: 3 Mar 2009, 04:54 pm »
"meatballs don't bounce."

Are you suggesting that we completely line our listening rooms with meatballs?  :lol:

Mariusz

Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #34 on: 3 Mar 2009, 05:53 pm »
Maryland maple "sounds" better than Canadian rock maple says the literature of Mapleshade Audio Products. Really? Does their competitor use Canadian rock maple? And we all know how bad that sounds! And what is exactly rock maple. I have never heard the term. And how does wood "sound" exactly. I can understand the phenomenon of dampening characteristics of different kinds of wood. Sometimes I get tired of this unscientific posturing by pseudo high end companies. You really have to suspend belief to buy into this nonsense. Anyway, thanks for putting up with my rant; I guess I'm getting old and cynical.

Bill


Bill
If you are charging $300-$400 for 3"-4" standard dimention lumber...... it better be rare and have some fancy name. ;)
IMHO Custom made stands/platforms work best with sensetive tube equipment and digital gear.
SS IMO is not that sensetive and you can get away with plain
1"-1.5" butcher block from IKEA.
Speakers is another matter. I have found material (name escapes me ;) ) which looks very simillar to Sym...um product ( which I ones owned ). At this stage, I can say that it works indeed very well with speakers, tt and digital (combine with wood). That is not surprising since the manufacturer of this product designed it for termo/vibration isolation.  aa

But at the end, there is more then one way to skin the cat.
Your isolation approuch should be as individual as your components and your personal preferences. 

   

DustyC

Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #35 on: 3 Mar 2009, 10:01 pm »
I recall that equipment from a few decades back had a lot of the electronics encased in a "potted" module. One of the benefits was vibration isolation. Now if there was really a difference between potted and exposed elements in a circut then everybody would still be encasing their circuts in these boxes or building in isolation schemes into their products.
Yep, isolation under a turntable is a good thing, keeping tubes from being rattled around is another. (I wonder why nobody uses those spring loaded tube covers any more?) Some manufacturers put zip ties around those soft film capacitors to secure them in place, perhaps they have a "damping' effect too?  :wink:

Wayner

Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #36 on: 3 Mar 2009, 10:46 pm »
Like Frank, I advocate proper support, especially turntables and speakers (isolation), and Zybar, when I have a chance I will try a couple of your suggestions. However in both environments for me, the equipment is extremely sturdy. The main system is in a very heavy steel Sanus system with lots of weight from about 8 components, including the amplifier and very heavy preamplifier. No vibration here.

In the sudio, everything is built in. The tables are on soild oak built in counters, the speakers are on solid oak shelves. I have made some isolation platforms for the tables, (granite and a 1 1/2" thick butcherblock), but that is about it.

Also, just because I started this post and someone got his feathers in a bunch about the word "junk", made the giant leap that I thought that anything under equipment is stupid. Although, IMHO, some have gone so overboard, it has lost common sense, especially considering the money spent and the pay-off gotten. But hey, do as you see fit. I was just curious to see some of your comments.

Wayner  :D

mgalusha

Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #37 on: 3 Mar 2009, 10:52 pm »
Regarding microphonic output from electronic components, the easy test is to turn the volume up with nothing playing and tap on their covers.  If you can hear anything coming from the speakers, that device probably needs help, if not then it is probably not your worst case problem.  In general, solid state equipment microphonics will not be worse case problems, although large soft film wound capacitors of the Magic cap ilk can be surprisingly microphonic, as bad as a signal tube in some cases.

I happened across this once with a SS amp on the bench while connected to a voltmeter measuring the noise floor. I noticed the needle would jump unexpectedly and correlated it to bumping/moving things. Tapping the amp would produce significant movement on the meter, I was very surprised as this was a DC coupled amp with no caps in the signal path. Perhaps it was from one of the PS caps but I never really dug into it. I did find those amps sounded a little clearer when sitting on the inexpensive rubber/cork/rubber isolation blocks ($1.50 each). The difference wasn't dramatic but it was noticeable.

avahifi

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Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #38 on: 3 Mar 2009, 11:33 pm »
Note that some completely DC coupled from input to output power amps are very very sensitive to any minor disturbance, and tend to happily amplify DC or thereabout from any suggestion of a signal, including AC line voltage variations (always happening) and very low level microphonic disturbances.  This is a good reason to usually avoid them unless they have really carefully done stabilization circuits to prevent DC output.

Note that the old audiophlake adage that "you gotta go to DC to have good bass" is wrong.  As you approach DC the amp runs out of power supply, the linearity of the active devices go to flanders, and the feedback loop tries to make impossibly large corrections.  It usually guarantees very high distortion at very low frequencies, not great bass.

Regards,

Frank

satfrat

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Re: Junk under the electronics......
« Reply #39 on: 4 Mar 2009, 02:03 am »
Like Frank, I advocate proper support, especially turntables and speakers (isolation), and Zybar, when I have a chance I will try a couple of your suggestions. However in both environments for me, the equipment is extremely sturdy. The main system is in a very heavy steel Sanus system with lots of weight from about 8 components, including the amplifier and very heavy preamplifier. No vibration here.

In the sudio, everything is built in. The tables are on soild oak built in counters, the speakers are on solid oak shelves. I have made some isolation platforms for the tables, (granite and a 1 1/2" thick butcherblock), but that is about it.

Also, just because I started this post and someone got his feathers in a bunch about the word "junk", made the giant leap that I thought that anything under equipment is stupid. Although, IMHO, some have gone so overboard, it has lost common sense, especially considering the money spent and the pay-off gotten. But hey, do as you see fit. I was just curious to see some of your comments.

Wayner  :D


Hey Wayner, we have something in common as I also use Sanus racks. :thumb: I use a Sanus CF-6 rack which was made out of heavy gauge quarter circle steel with MDF shelves that are individually damped with the whole unit being spiked to the floor. I replaced the Sanus spikes with Audiopoints on my oak Sanus.  :D
As far as "someone got his feathers in a bunch about the word "junk", made the giant leap that I thought that anything under equipment is stupid",,, I wasn't making any other observations about what you were thinking,,,, I was making an observation on the thread title only, and how it could be interpreted. There are better ways of stating your personal opinion than to openly suggest that everyone who does uses tweeks under their gear is using "junk". If you can't see how insulting this thread title can be interpreted,,,, well I guess that's to be expected. :dunno:

Cheers,
Robin