[Flashman]

Thanks to help on this forum, I purchased a Luxman LE-109 phono amp and mated it to my old Sony PS-3300 turntable.  I also purchased an inexpensive Shure M97xe MM cartridge to begin my vinyl odyssey.  So far so good, and I am happily listening to vinyl again!  I even recorded a few albums to my Olive Musica music center with success.

Now, I would like to try an inexpensive MC cartridge as my next step and have settled on the Denon DL-103R for its price-performance qualities.  Also, apparently it will mate well to the S tone arm of the Sony.  I have some questions that I hope I can get some assistance with (I don’t have a manual for the Luxman, by the way, but have seen some online information that I will refer to):

1.   I’d like to buy a universal head shell so I can keep both the Denon and the Shure available for comparison.  Where may I buy a replacement head shell that will fit my Sony?  Is there any particular one that might be recommended?  For reference, the one that came with the unit is 7.5 grams. 

2.   I am a little confused about hooking up the Denon cartridge to my Luxman.  For example, I have the option of using phono 1, or “MC straight,” in which, according to an online reference to the Luxman manual, “the audio signal goes directly to the phono EQ section. That way, no selection circuitry or other obstacles stand in the way of fidelity. This circuit uses two discrete dual differential, full complementary amplifiers. Low-noise high Gm FETs are used throughout. Powered by dual independent bipolar power supplies, these high-speed amplifiers set the ultimate standard in phono pre-amplifiers.”  Gee, sounds pretty impressive.

   The other choice is to use phono 2, which accommodates both MM and MC cartridges.  Then, I have the option of a 22db circuit (high output) or a 32db circuit (low output).  Then there is the matter of impedance at 3 ohm, 40 ohm and 100 ohm.  Also, there are attenuate buttons at -20db, -10db and 0db.  Pretty confusing to this novice.

   Given that I would like to go with the Denon DL-103R, can anyone help me with the settings?  Should I use MC straight or MM/MC with the adjustments?  (I guess one of the advantages of using the MM/MC circuit is that I can easily swap the Shure and the Denon cartridges.)  The specs on the Denon cartridge are an output voltage of 0.25mV (is this high or low output?), output impedance of 40 ohms and load impedance of 100 ohms.  Just not sure how I should adjust the settings on the phono amp to meet those specs.

Many thanks.

[Listens2tubes]

From my experience with my Dynavector Karat 17D2 with output voltage of .26mV, it would seem the differance between the 20dB and 32dB is intended for a medium output cartridge in the 1.5 - 2.5mV range. I use a 26dB MC step-up transforner for the .26mV Karat, which does not offer the same volume as CD or tape deck output.  Hope this helps

[lcrim]

I suggest that the Denon 103R may not be a great match to the Sony PS 3300.  The Denon 103R is very low output @ 0.25 mV.  You are going to need over 60 dB of gain from your phono section to have anything like realistic dynamics.  It is also a very low compliance cartridge and thus will require a high mass tonearm for control.  While I couldn't find specs on your TT which was apparently from 1976/77 and that period's state of the art was the low mass, high compliance type cartridge.  I would think that it will be necessary to add mass to whatever headshell you find to track properly.  Denon suggests a tracking foce of 2.5-2.8 gms for the 103R.  There are better matches available.

[Flashman]

Thanks Listens2tubes and lcrim for your comments. 

Let me address your comments in two parts:

1.    Regarding the tonearm and the Denon, I am fine.  The Sony PS-3300 tonearm can accommodate cartridges between 4 and 10 grams.  The weight spec for the Denon is 8.5 grams.  Also, the Sony also will track up to 3 grams and the spec on the Denon is 2.3 to 2.7 grams.  No problems there.

2.   The output of the Denon is another matter, as both of you have pointed out.  Seems I would need about 60db of gain, and the highest setting on my Luxman is 32db.  That leads me to ask whether the impedance settings of the Luxman have any affect on the gain.  The Luxman has 3, 40 and 100 ohm settings.  I read that the output impedance of the Denon is 14 ohms.  Any reason to believe that the combination of ohm setting and gain setting would get me there? 

3.   Another related question is whether going “MC straight,” which is an option on the Luxman, would work with the Denon.  Seems this setting eliminates the need to make MC adjustments.  Anyone have experience with that type of setting?

4.   Okay, a really simple question.  I am also looking for a universal headshell that will work with my Sony.  Any ideas on what and where to buy?

Thanks!

[ckline]

1.    Regarding the tonearm and the Denon, I am fine.  The Sony PS-3300 tonearm can accommodate cartridges between 4 and 10 grams.  The weight spec for the Denon is 8.5 grams.  Also, the Sony also will track up to 3 grams and the spec on the Denon is 2.3 to 2.7 grams.  No problems there.

Nope, what weight cartridge the tone arm can accommodate and how heavy the tone arm can be set to track is not what Icrim was talking about. What he was talking about was effective mass of the tonearm which is importent with the denon; they like and work best with a high effective mass 16+. If you are getting a new headshell look for one that is heavy for the denon BUT from what I can tell the arm plus the headshell that you have should put you in the right range.


2.   The output of the Denon is another matter, as both of you have pointed out.  Seems I would need about 60db of gain, and the highest setting on my Luxman is 32db.  That leads me to ask whether the impedance settings of the Luxman have any affect on the gain.  The Luxman has 3, 40 and 100 ohm settings.  I read that the output impedance of the Denon is 14 ohms.  Any reason to believe that the combination of ohm setting and gain setting would get me there? 


The Luxman has a lot of gain and will work just fine. The 22db and 32db setting are over and above the MM gain which is typically around 40db. From the specs that I found on the unit (thevintageknob site) phono 1 MC straight I think will work just fine with that cartridge and give you the best sound. It bypasses a few options that phono2 intput has and is a more direct connection (always better). It should have plenty of gain for the denon and it is loaded at 100ohms which the denon likes.

happy listening!

[Jampot]

If the Sony uses a 'truly' universal headshell, you can take your pick here-

http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/Headshells

A lot of folk like the Sumiko because it allows adjustment of azimuth. (next question )

I had a Luxman C300 with MC direct input and it worked fine with the output from a vanilla D103. You may find you may need to advance the volume control more than with your line inputs, but provided the Luxman phono stage doesn't have a lot of noise that should be fine (from what I recall of your thread concerning the Luxman it is a nice piece of equipment, so you shouldn't have too much noise to contend with).

Interesting that you 'copied' some vinyl to the Olive. I tried that with my PC and some software to split the tracks and gave it up as too labour intensive to contemplate, but have an under utilised Hifidalio (European Olive) in the closet. Hmmm, you got me thinking!

[Flashman]

Chris and Jampot,

Bingo! You have given me some very useful advice on the two key issues:

1.   Being a newbie, the “mass” of the tonearm was confusing.  If I need an effective mass of 16+ then, Chris, you are correct that I appear to be in range.  The Sony headshell is 7.5 grams and the weight spec of the Denon at 8.5 puts me on spot.  As I look for a supplementary headshell for the Sony I’ll try to get one a bit heavier, and perhaps the Sumiko that Jampot suggested might be the ticket.

2.    The lack of a manual with the Luxman LE-109 was giving me fits , and you two have shed some light on the unit.  I didn’t realize that the MC gain settings on the Luxman were in addition to the MM gain, which Chris says should be about 40db.  So I guess that gives me effective gain settings of 62db and 72db.  As for MC straight, which both of your suggest as a first choice, I will try it, especially as it is a more direct connection and has a loading that the Denon apparently prefers.  Jampot, the Luxman is quiet indeed, with little noise.  I also have it connected to a Monarchy NM24 DAC/linestage, which has 16db of gain, so gain should not be an issue.

Jampot, my first attempt at using the Olive Musica for vinyl recording was easier than expected.  I connected the RCA outputs from my linestage to the RCA inputs of the Olive.  Next, I set the Olive to analogue recording, pressing the “new” button to open up a new recording.  You have the choice of manually setting the recording or letting the unit do it automatically.  I chose the latter. 

As you record, the unit automatically separates the tracks but if you are recording symphonic music you may have to play with the gap setting.  Once I figured out how to flip the record and continue the recording unabated, I was on my way.  The next step, once the full record was recorded, was to eliminate any unwanted gaps and join any tracks that had become separated, which was quite easy.  Then, you press a button to “cut” the album and it’s ready to be imported in your preferred digital format onto the hard drive.  (The unit also keeps the analogue recording in case you want to re-cut it later.)  To quell the noise of the setting of the stylus on the opening cuts on each side, you can set those areas up as separate tracks and then just delete them later. 

As to the quality, I record in FLAC and the two records sound terrific.  It’s a great way to save your vinyl, retain the vinyl sound and have the ease of hard drive playback!  Best of luck with your Hifidelio, a.k.a. Olive in the United States.

[blakep]

The 103R needs about 60-62 db of total gain to work optimally, so the setting on your phono pre that delivers that is the one to look to first. Many users of the 103R (as you are aware, it has a much lower internal impedance than the standard 103) also prefer it to be loaded below 100 ohms. I would think that the 40 ohm loading would be ideal and deliver the most natural sound and that's where I'd start personally with a view to experimenting with the 100 ohm setting and as well. When it gets right down to it, choice on loading is going to be a subjective thing depending on what kind of sound you want to achieve.

[royphil345]

The matching of cartridge compliance to arm mass has nothing to do with what weight cartridges the arm will accept. It has to do with where your resonance frequency will end up when you mount cartridges having a certain compliance on arms of a certain mass. The DL-103 was made to be used with tonearms having a higher mass. The arm on your Sony is a medium mass S-shaped job, so you should be OK. A higher mass headshell would probably be advised.

Any standard straight headhell made for S-shaped tonearms will work fine. There are a couple for sale now that have azimuth adjustment and have a little more mass. They're very popular with DL-103 users. Here's one of them... http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=LPGZHEAD&Category_Code=HEADSHELLS  I have a couple standard silver headshells with leads for a Sony PS-X6 I no longer own that say Sony on them. You can have them for free if you want them. Send me an address in a PM.

The specs on that Luxman look kind of funny because moving magnet gain is given as 0 dB. So, I wouldn't worry if the gain specs look too low for moving coil. The average opinion on the net seems to be to set the loading at 100 ohms for a regular DL-103 and lower for a 103R. This may be wrong. It was brought to my attention that on the test papers included with the cartridges that show nice, flat frequency response... they loaded the regular DL-103 at 1000 ohms (1kohm)... and the 103R at 47kohms. My regular 103 sounds awesome at 1kohm. I haven't tried my 103R at 47Kohm yet, but I didn't like it at all with less of a load. Output sounded a bit weak and there was a lift in the highs I didn't care for. It went straight into storage. After my experience with loading the regular 103 as it was loaded to create the test sheet, I'd be willing to bet 47kohms works better with the 103R and I may actually like it when I try it that way.

My only reservation about trying a moving coil on the Sony would be arm quality. The bearings on the arm of my Sony were garbage and there was some play in them. Revealing cartridges just sounded harsh and "fizzy". I had better luck with warmer sounding carts like the Shure. The arm on my Technics 1200 works MUCH better with more revealing carts.

[Flashman]

Royphil345,

Thanks for the advice, and you have a PM.  Appreciate your generosity for a newbie!  Gradually, I am getting educated on cartridge compliance to arm mass.  Never realized this refinement when I was spinning discs in the 60s, 70s and early 80s.  I just plugged in a cartridge, followed the set-up directions and marched on.  As with all things for audiophiles, there are many nuances once you get immersed! 

I have my Sony PS-3300 in a repair shop right now getting a tune-up after all those years of sitting in an attic.  At some point, I may move up to a Technics 1200 if the vinyl bug bites me hard enough. 

As for the gain on the Luxman and the Denon LOMC carts, I will experiment once I decide on the 103 vs. 103R.  Sounds as if my Luxman will work fine on the MC straight setting and may try that as the default mode for the time being.

Once I have a new cart, maybe a new mat, a bit heavier headshell and my Sony back at home, I'll be having fun!

[Bursabaju]

2,8 grams should be very good for this Denon 103R.

[Flashman]

Thanks for all the suggestions on this string of notes and thanks to royphil345 for the Sony headshells.  Things have changed since I originally wrote the Feb. 16 post.  I took my Sony PS-3300 to a local repair shop for a tune-up and in the process happened to break a tiny gear on the spindle that was used to engage another larger gear that moved the platter.  Well, the shop couldn't find a replacement for the tiny gear and so my TT was effectively belly up.  So, I opted to purchase a Technics SL-1200mk2pk (black edition).  It should arrive in a couple of days, timed with the imminent arrival of the Denon DL-103r.  I also now have the Sumiko HS12 headshell to give some heft to the Technics arm.  I also have those extra Sony headshells for some alternating carts.  Right now, though, I intend to stick with the Shure m97xe and the Denon DL-103r.

Okay, the other piece of news is that I purchased a much-needed manual for the recently purchased vintage Luxman LE-109 phono amp.  I was initially concerned that the Luxman might now have enough gain but ckline disabused me of that thought.  I was misled by the marking for the moving magnet setting, which read "0" db.  As ckline pointed out, that setting was probably about 40db.  For the record, the "input sensitivity switches" are listed as "MM/0db," "22db," and "32db."  I realize now, as ckline pointed out, that the 22db and 32db settings were in addition to the MM base setting of about 40db.  According to the manual, the "22db" setting is for MC carts with output voltage exceeding O.15mV.  The "32db" setting is for MC carts with output voltage of less than 0.15mV.  And the "impedance selector switches" are 3 ohm, 40 ohm and 100 ohm.  These are employed for MC carts and the instruction is to set the impedance equal to or greater than the manufacturer's specifications.

So, I have two options with the settings for the Denon as follows:

1) I can simply go with "MC straight," which, according to the manual, "offers a straight signal path to minimize deterioration of the signal.  It can be used with "almost any type of MC cartridge whatever its output voltage level."  The use of this setting does not permit the other front panel settings to operate.  There is a dedicated set of jacks on the rear of the unit for MC straight or Phono-1.

2) The other option is to use customized settings via the MM/MC set of jacks, or Phono-2.  In this case, given that the Denon has an output voltage of 0.25mV, I would use the 22db setting (or, as ckline points out, probably an effective 66db setting).  Next, I would set the impedance selector switch to 3, 40 or 100 ohms.  My guess here is to try the 40ohm setting as the Denon has an output impedance of 14 ohms.  The next lowest setting is 3 ohms, which the manual indicates would not be useful as it is lower than the specified output impedance.  Of course the manual also suggests using trial and error with the switches to provide the best sound quality.

Okay, I think I will initially try the second option, mainly because I can use the MM/MC settings for both the Shure MM and the Denon MC carts.  After awhile, I'll probably switch over to the MC straight jacks/selector to what difference there is with the Denon through the unfiltered path.

I've already gotten some feedback from royphil345 who has a Technics/Denon 103 combo and I have done some reading on various forums about settings for the Denon.  Suffice to say I will keep all informed of my journey of discovery.

[TheChairGuy]

#1 will win out for you...vinyl loves as direct a path as possible (unless convenience is more important overall than sound quality)

The straight path/direct option is one that every vinylista should dabble in...it's just helpful as heck to sonics 

John

[BikeWNC]

Since we're talking about a Technics and a Denon 103R, and I can't seem to get the search function to work, can someone tell me what null points you are using to setup the cartridge?  I read so much conflicting info about the 1200mk2.  I have been using 58.5 and 113.5 but there is mention of a Stevenson alignment and 63.3xx and 117.4x null points.  So what are you using?

Andy

[royphil345]

I just carefully use the Technics overhang gauge and the results agree perfectly with a simple, 2-point Baerwald protractor (66 / 120.89).

I've seen on a lot of stuff on the web stating the Technics gauge is not a Baerwald alignment... that the cartridge must be twisted in the headshell to acheive a Baerwald alignment... But, I haven't found that to be true. I even posted pics on a site and was accused of lying and ganged up on by a bunch of the people because I challenged the standard community belief on that particular site. I love checking in on this site now and then because the people here seem to be into experimenting and thinking for themselves, instead of simply regurgitating things they've read on the web as gospel.

I think some of these people are using more complex protractors that just don't work properly with the Technics for some reason. Can't go wrong with a simple 2-point. There may be different ways to angle the cartridge in the headshell with a slightly different overhang and still hit the null points, but with different rates of error at other points? Not sure on that one... just a theory... So, maybe everybody's right.

Anyhow... Baerwald is working fine for me. The Technics / DL-103 combo sounds terrific and I get many compliments on my vinyl rips. My only possible gripe is that I think tracking could maybe be better upon occasion. But, I'm not sure. Most of my albums are used and possibly damaged a bit. It's possible I'd get a little distortion here and there with any other cart too.