[Josuah]

So, I heard a pair of NuForce Reference 9 monoblocks a week ago. I've always been satisfied with my Emotiva MPS-1, but never super happy. It has an undesirable noise floor, for one.

I'm wondering if anything from the Anthem line would sound better. I'm not really prepared to buy just to try, and not even sure I'd spend the money to do this anytime soon. But I was wondering if anyone had some opinions.

The reason I ask about Anthem is because I want something with enough volume that the price is more based on the quality than shipping volume. (No offense to those companies with small shipping volume.) Anthem is one of the top-brands in that category. If people have other suggestions that'd be great, but please try to explain why you are suggesting that brand/model.

[dweekie]

Were you happy with the Nuforce?

[Josuah]

I thought it was good, but it wasn't at my place, nor was I able to give it a lot of critical listening because it wasn't in my setup and the music was unfamiliar to me. But there were brief comparisons against some other amps: Odyssey Stratos, Parasound A21, Halcro something. I didn't like the Halcro as much as the Parasound or NuForce. I didn't have time to form an opinion about the Odyssey. I thought the Halcro added some noise, similar I think to my MPS-1.

[rydenfan]

Anthem and Emotiva have both always sounded very bright and harsh to me but YMMV

[Josuah]

Anthem and Emotiva have both always sounded very bright and harsh to me but YMMV

Could you explain a little more? Their frequency responses are flat, which doesn't mean bright to me. Harsh might mean distortion or noise?

[rydenfan]

You asked for opinions on how the stuff sounded and I gave it to you. I dont have much of a desire to then argue with you about what I heard in my system. If you feel they have a flat response and therefore do not sound that way then that is all that matters.

[Josuah]

I didn't mean to start a debate or argument. I was just trying to fully understand what you mean. Bright and harsh are very undefined terms so I was asking for clarification. I take it your statement of bright does mean above flat in the higher frequencies then.

Your opinion is useful to me. If you think Anthem and Emotiva sound similar, then perhaps I would not find an Anthem amp to be an improvement. I'm just trying to understand in what respect you found them similar. Thanks.

[Kenobi]

Josh,

I think Rydenfan meant that the MPS-1 and Anthem aren't refined and smooth on the upper frequencies.  In my opinion, I can echo his experience in that these amps are edgy and not pleasant at loud volume with certain recordings and sting/fatigue the ears.  I once had the MPS-1 and have auditioned the Anthem. 

Currently I am happy with the Nuforce MCH3SE w/ V2 boards.  Much cleaner, transparent, extended from top to bottom and has a very layered and convincing soundstage that is also wide and spacious.  Very neutral though and can swing either lean or warm depending on your upstream equipment and cabling synergy.  This piece replaced the Bel Canto Ref 1K MK1 for music and HT duty.

Regards,

Kenboi

[Josuah]

Thanks for your input, Kenboi. Would you mind telling me what the rest of your electronic gear was? When you switched over to the NuForce the rest of your gear and speakers was the same?

I'm currently using a DMC-1 -> MPS-1 -> Onix Ref 3. I've found that if I replace the DMC-1 with an outboard DAC a lot of the yuckiness more audible at loud volumes goes away. Clearer with less smearing of individual sounds in the time domain, and greater range reproduced with the same music. So I've concluded that at least the DMC-1 DACs are significantly lacking. And this was still with the DMC-1 doing signal processing.

That's why I'm wondering what your upstream gear was, as maybe the NuForce simply helped address an issue upstream rather than an issue with the MPS-1 or Anthem. I should try and audition a NuForce at home. When I heard them they were paired with a Cary tube pre-amp and a room with somewhat less than desirable acoustic properties.

However, I do believe that overall the MPS-1 sounds a little dry or stale or something. I'm afraid I can't describe it correctly. Did you experience any noise with the MPS-1, even when not playing music, which is now gone?

What were your thoughts on the Bel Canto? I've always sort of considered them overpriced....

[Kenobi]

Hi Josh,

I went from the MPS-1 to the Bel Canto Ref 1K MKI when I had the below:

Dynaudio Contour T2.5 (smooth but maybe too smooth and lacks bite, needed lots of oomphs to boogie)
Emotive DMC-1/ Musical Fidelity X-Pre
Art Dio DAC(Modified to Mensa by Bolder Cable)
Onix XCD88 (transport)
Acoustic Zen Matrix II, Ref II interconnects
AZ MC2 = Zen Digital coaxial
Analysis Plus Oval 12 speaker cables
PS Audio Quintet, Duet & Belkin 60 (forgot the entire model name)
Nordost Pulsar Points, Vibrapods, other cones and footers of various kinds
Oyaide XXX outlet, PS Audio Power Port

The MPS-1 I had were noisy with the fan even w/o playing.  Its sound is quite powerful but not refined.  I think it was a bit noisy from the listening position in that details were not pristine.  Not an issue with HT but not my cup of tea for 2channel application.  Overall, it was lacking in refinement, transparency and realistic rendering of music.  I never got the impression that I was hearing the real thing in front of me.

The BC Ref 1K (MKI) were a lot smoother and very powerful.  Its midrange presentation was what first drew me in on this amp.  It was thick, smooth and dimensional.  However, w/ my speakers at the time (Dynaudio T2.5), there was no sparkle at the top and I felt claustrophobic because space and air seemed sucked out of the presentation.  To me, this amp was very midrange-centric with a fat bottom that isn't too pitch-accurate or taut and missing the upper most octave at the top.  This was true even when I had the extended tweeter from Onix 123 at the time and replaced the DMC-1 w/ a Proceed AVP2 Pre/pro.  Along with efforts at swapping cables and careful attention to footers helped just a smidgen but not enough to satisfy.   

Then I bought new speakers.  After unsuccessful attempt to mate the new Usher Be-718 with the Bel Cantos, I replaced the monos with the  Nuforce MCH3SE (similar to the Ref 9SE w/ V2 boards but in multi-channel).  I now have no need for the onix supertweeters.   Yet, I now have details galore, spacious and transparent presentation and lively dynamics missing from all previous combos.  Very neutral and faithful to the music.  It allows me to hear differences in vocal inflection from the same singer on different days, sound tracks.  It can be harsh sounding or warm and smooth if the system or soundtrack is inclined one way or the other.  It can be soft and feathery or lively and visceral and everything in between.  Fast and furious w/o residue in its presentation, very pristine and has great see-thru clarity.  Also, the customer service was first rate from this company. 

At this point, I have made further changes to cablings (Acoustic Systems Liveline, DACs, added balanced power conditioner to further refine the sound.

Hope this helps,

Kenobi

[Josuah]

That helps a lot, Kenboi. Thanks a bunch. I think I have a good picture of what you experienced and why.

As you've described it, the NuForce seems to have a lot more control at an electrical level than the Bel Canto. That can sound fine for the mid-range, because we like hearing things blend together there. But it doesn't sound so good to blend together things in the high or low frequencies (IMHO).

I don't necessarily think the MPS-1 lacks control, and from your description I don't think you did either, but rather adds noise to the signal.

More reason for me to get some NuForce's to audition.

[Kenobi]

Josh,

I believe they still have the $1 in home audition from a qualified dealer.  Be ware that this amp will likely expose weaknesses (more than any in my expereince) in the chain if any.  Don't automatically point the finger at the amp if that becomes the case.  Instead, try to isolate the weaklink elsewhere and emeliorate the situation and you will have a very capable amp that will withstand further upgrades to other equipments down the line.  Or, until Nuforce comes up with a V3.  I am beginning to sound like a fan boy but just can't help it as it has made the most significant upgrade in my 15+ year in this hobby.

Good luck,

Kenobi

[Josuah]

I believe they still have the $1 in home audition from a qualified dealer.

Oh, thanks for that info! I'd never heard of that before.

[Josuah]

I've been hearing some good things about D-Sonic, Wyred 4 Sound, and Jeff Rowland type amps. So I'm currently considering those "type" and the NuForce. On paper these seem to be better than the NuForce.

[BillB]

My buddy has a pair of Odysseys and the other has an XPA-5. I think it would be a good idea to give the Odysseys another whack.

[Josuah]

My buddy has a pair of Odysseys and the other has an XPA-5. I think it would be a good idea to give the Odysseys another whack.

Do you have any thoughts on the Odyssey?

[Hoots]

I have the same setup: MPS-1, DCM-1, Ref 3 plus P1A w/SOCs.  I also have an MMF-5 turntable professionally calibrated, but I don't have power conditioning or expensive cables (just Emo XLRs, onix speaker cable and cheap digital cables).

I would like the sound to be more natural, pleasant, and enjoyable.  At 75+db it sounds loud.  There is a lot of detail but when I go to a dealer I seem to always like their setups better.

It's not clear to me that the amp is the problem but this thread has raised that question since one person described my concerns.   I did swap the pre/pro for a tube pre-amp (Dodd ref pre) and it with the MPS1 helped.  I wish I would have tried a different amp...the MPS seemed very powerful with the tube pre.

Then there are the speakers which have been reviewed as forward, detailed, revealing, etc.  Perhaps the synergy between Emotiva and Ref isn't very good?

When Emo came out there were several comparisons to Anthem (mostly the pre/pro).  I didn't perceive there was a strong preference for one vs. the other and the Emo was lower price.

At the moment I seem to prefer my Denon 2900 connected with the R/L cables in 8-channel bypass mode vs. digital (Denon Dac vs Emo).  When I bought the Emo pre/pro I also had a Pt P3a and I thought the EMO DAC was very close but not 100% equal.


I'm not sure where to the best bang for the buck should be directed next.  let me know what you find....

[Josuah]

If things sound loud at 75dB it might be your room. What does your room look/sound like? From my experience, if your ears start hurting at higher volumes, it's first the room and second distortion. The DMC-1 has some distortion which I get rid of with a DAC. The DMC-1 DAC is nowhere close to my DAC.

My room is treated and the MPS-1 has enough power to not introduce distortion in the vast majority of cases. Where I think I could do better with a different amp is the noise floor and control.

Often times people look at tubes as the way to address the room/distortion issues, because
a) tube distortion is different than SS distortion and more pleasing
b) the frequency response is no longer flat, especially as the speaker impedance changes

I don't think the Ref 3's are bad speakers. Detailed and revealing are good things to me.

Also, I found out that even if you use the non-multi-channel inputs on the DMC-1, it doesn't seem to do A-D-A conversion. Or at least not to the extent that you're using the DMC-1 DACs. You may find that things sound just as good with the other analog inputs, which still allows you to use a sub. Although SOCS will mess with your sub phase and frequency response in that case.

Anyway, my recommendations to you right now would first be your room and then a better DAC if you find the P3-A very close to the DMC-1.