Questions on Sumiko cartridges

GETRDUN · « **on:** 31 Jan 2009, 07:21 am »

Just wanted to first say hello to everyone on here! I am a newbie here and have a couple of questions for a cartridge:

1-Wanting to upgrade my vintage turntable (Denon DP30L) I presently have a Sumiko Oyster cartridge on it, but want to upgrade to either the Blue point special or the Blackbird. Just wondering if anyone has heard both cartridges and could give some feed back? I was kinda thinking that the blackbird was overkill for my Denon.

2- Would it be recommended to upgrade the tonearm wire? I was told that it was a real job replacing the wires due to getting the proper alignment of the wires correct.

Any feed back would be appreciated!

Wayner · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 Jan 2009, 02:11 pm »

I have the Blue Point Special and it isn't "special". I think there are lots of better cartridges/brands for the money, like Audio Technica, Grado, Ortofon even Denon has a lower priced/high performance cart that many here like.

Welcome to the Audiocircles!

Wayner

Kirk57 · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 Jan 2009, 03:28 pm »

Hi-

I'm a first time poster, but been lurking for a while.

I can second the opinion on the Blue Point Special. I have an EVO III and over the past 2 years I have tried 3 different tonearms (Systemdek, Sumiko MMT and Rega RB300) on three different turntables (Systemdek, Merrill-modded AR and Lenco) and could not get rid of a brightness in the upper midrange that revealed great detail but that drove me crazy in the end.

I know some have had good results with this cartridge in more expensive tonearms, but for those I tried the result was consistent. Finally I have given up on the EVOII and am using a cheap Audio-Technica, which has bested a Grado Signature, Russ Andrews and Stanton. That's just in my system.
I'm looking at Audio Technica ML440MLa and Ortofon 2M Blue next.

Wayner · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 Jan 2009, 04:56 pm »

Kirk57,

All I run in my tables is the AT440MLa. I believe I have been coined the AT440MLa "pimp", 'cause I recommend it all the time. Great little cartridge for not so much cash. So far, I haven't found a table or arm combination that it doesn't compliment.

Welcome to Audiocircles, also.

Wayner

GETRDUN · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 Jan 2009, 08:37 pm »

Thanks for the advice guys! Like I said before, I presently have the oyster cartridge, which doesn't sound that bad, but I was told by a very knowledgeable person that the blue point special was a much better cartridge, not to mention my cost would be about 40% off retail for a new blue point special. But I am still open for more opinions or suggestions!

Thanks again!

ricmon · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Feb 2009, 07:22 pm »

I use the Blackbird................fabulous;s cart. I am constantly impressed with what it can do. It has a very low noise floor and presents the music in all it's glory. Is it overkill for you deck? I can't say, but if you decide to upgtrade your TT latter you will have a killer cart for your nrew TT.

Ric

GETRDUN · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Feb 2009, 12:25 am »

Quote from: ricmon on 2 Feb 2009, 07:22 pm

I use the Blackbird................fabulous;s cart. I am constantly impressed with what it can do. It has a very low noise floor and presents the music in all it's glory. Is it overkill for you deck? I can't say, but if you decide to upgtrade your TT latter you will have a killer cart for your nrew TT.

Ric

Hi Ric, Thanks for the info! Have you listened to the Blue point special? If so, Could you describe the the differences of the two. Also, what brand turntable are you using?

Thanks

tnewell · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Feb 2009, 01:45 am »

Hi,

I had one of the old Blue Point Specials years ago with a VPI HW18 JR table and it was OK. It was bettered by a Dynavector 10X5 which is pretty close in price.

The best way to describe the Blue Point Special is that it made records sound like CDs. Good bass, little bright on top and not a lot of that analog warmth.

I have heard great things about the Blackbird though.

Tom

ricmon · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Feb 2009, 05:52 pm »

Quote from: GETRDUN on 3 Feb 2009, 12:25 am

Quote from: ricmon on 2 Feb 2009, 07:22 pm
I use the Blackbird................fabulous;s cart. I am constantly impressed with what it can do. It has a very low noise floor and presents the music in all it's glory. Is it overkill for you deck? I can't say, but if you decide to upgtrade your TT latter you will have a killer cart for your nrew TT.

Ric

Hi Ric, Thanks for the info! Have you listened to the Blue point special? If so, Could you describe the the differences of the two. Also, what brand turntable are you using?

Thanks

Hi GETRDUN. Sorry it took so long to reply. I've been off line for a few days. Unfortunately I have not had the opportunuty to listen to the Blue Point. I'm using a Pro-Ject RM 9.1 and got them both in a package deal. However, I have been listining to Hi-Fi for a long time now and can tell you that after listing to this cart I have no need to go cart hunting. The Black Bird is truly a hi-end cart that does just what the reviews describe.

Ric

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 01:41 am »

Hmmmmmm........... I have the Blackbird too. It is a very good cartridge, certainly one of the best that I have ever owned. I like it for everything that it does right. It's an excellent tracker, and it retrieves tons of detail yet it doesn't exagerate the surface noise. How in the heck does it do all that?

But,,,,,,,,,

I am starting to question its tonal balance. Compared to CD, it seems a little bright and forward up top, and a little light weight in the bass, say starting below 80 Hz or so. It has a tipped up kind of sound that is more energetic as you move up in frequency. I feel confident that I have the cartridge adjusted optimally but maybe I should revisit the tracking angle. Perhaps this is just the inherent sound of the Sumiko cartridges.

I hope others reply to this thread. I never owned the BPS, but I remember that it also was a little light weight sounding.

SET Man · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 05:26 am »

Hey!

Used to have BPS EVO III but now I'm using the Benz Micro "ACE" HO the 1st version.

The ACE HO is much better than the BPS EVO III for me, more fluid and better overall in term of musicality, made the BPS EVO III sound mechanical... in my own system of course.

I've used two Sumiko carts the BPS and than BPS EVO III so I think I know the overall house sound of Sumiko carts and I don't think I will do back to Sumiko again.

Take care,
Buddy

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 10:58 am »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 11 Feb 2009, 01:41 am

I am starting to question its tonal balance. Compared to CD, it seems a little bright and forward up top, and a little light weight in the bass, say starting below 80 Hz or so. It has a tipped up kind of sound that is more energetic as you move up in frequency. I feel confident that I have the cartridge adjusted optimally but maybe I should revisit the tracking angle. Perhaps this is just the inherent sound of the Sumiko cartridges.

Pretty much standard fare for moving coils of the affordable variety...they tend towards tipped up tonal balance.

Once you get past $600 or so in today's market (in the US, at least), you may have some more hand tuning (ie, damping in various ways) to some moving coils which probably helps the tipped-up response. Going from the Blue Point Special to the Blackbird may get you that added layer of hand tuning by some skilled person in Japan that makes them (in fact it may be the only difference between the two models).....and might relieve some of this attribute from the equation.

From the many satisfied Blackbird reviews I have read, this might well be the case

But, it seems your still questioning the tonal balance.

The 2.5mv output of the Sumiko's are really commendable and truly allow you to use moving magnet phono stages without issue.

The Denon DL-160 for US$179.00 doesn't do much wrong for it's price and is pretty unfussy. It's ills are mostly of omission (bass could be stronger, output at 2.2mv borders on tweeky, etc), and not glaring or painful to hear.

I owned an (original) Blue Point with van den Hul stylus. After suffering thru 50 hours of break-in, I heard enough to know it wasn't improving, and flung it at 50mph against a wall and happily smashed so that no further attempt to play it would occur. I don't usually throw away $300....but, I couldn't in good conscience sell that dog to anyone

But, it's probably 15 years of steady improvements in the Sumiko design now....likely at a point (particularly with the Blackbird model) where it'll just sound nice to most ears

A hearty 'hello' and welcome to AudioCircle to the newbies and long-time lurkers choosing to surface in this thread

John

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 05:20 pm »

Chairguy,

Thank you for your suggestions. A couple questions for you and anyone else who would like to reply.

1. Do you think that a low output moving coil suffers less from that tipped up response than a high output moving coil? Or is mainly the cost factor as you described?

2. What cartridge (regardless of category) would you recommend to someone who would be willing to sacrifice some of that moving coil magic detail for a little more meat on the bone?

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread............ I think I'm still talking about the Sumiko house sound

. For anyone considering Sumiko products, I still believe that the Blackbird is a good cartridge. I'm just coming to grips with the fact that my taste is changing as I get older.

Thanks for letting me sit in and ask some questions.

woodsyi · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 05:45 pm »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 11 Feb 2009, 05:20 pm

2. What cartridge (regardless of category) would you recommend to someone who would be willing to sacrifice some of that moving coil magic detail for a little more meat on the bone?

Koetsu.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 06:20 pm »

Try 1000k loading on the Blackbird, and you will be very surprised
at the results. I know it can be used at 47k, but it always sounds
thin there....

Just a thought.

(but a Koetsu is a good idea too if you have the $$)

arthurs · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 06:56 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 11 Feb 2009, 10:58 am

The Denon DL-160 for US$179.00 doesn't do much wrong for it's price and is pretty unfussy. It's ills are mostly of omission (bass could be stronger, output at 2.2mv borders on tweeky, etc), and not glaring or painful to hear.

I went from a Blackbird to the DL-160 when my Sumiko crapped out, and for the $$$ John hit the nail on the head, although it doesn't sound too bass shy in my setup, it does a lot right and is an excellent value.

bluemike · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 07:17 pm »

Denon 160 is a nice cart

For a bit more $$ the Ortofon 2m line ..Shibata stylus Bronze or the black are a screaming deal imo

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 08:01 pm »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 11 Feb 2009, 05:20 pm

Chairguy,

Thank you for your suggestions. A couple questions for you and anyone else who would like to reply.

1. Do you think that a low output moving coil suffers less from that tipped up response than a high output moving coil? Or is mainly the cost factor as you described?

2. What cartridge (regardless of category) would you recommend to someone who would be willing to sacrifice some of that moving coil magic detail for a little more meat on the bone?

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread............ I think I'm still talking about the Sumiko house sound . For anyone considering Sumiko products, I still believe that the Blackbird is a good cartridge. I'm just coming to grips with the fact that my taste is changing as I get older.

Thanks for letting me sit in and ask some questions.

As are too many things vinyl, it's not so cut n' dry to answer these, but I'll try to help (by no means is my experience and belief to be thought of as perfect or above the advice of others

)

1. I think it's cost slightly more important over low or high output on this matter. Hand labor is costly...the more a process can be mechanized, the less expensive a product is to the consumer.

2. I totally dig Grado's...but, newbies and those without fluid damped arms need not apply - it needs substantial tweeking to get right. But, baby, it's got meat, grizzle, phat and teriyaki flavor on it's bones

The Grado is something of a hybrid in that it's electrical properties of inductance and resistance are many magnitudes lower than other moving magnets, yet higher than any moving coil. Moving Coil's 'magic' is likely found in these specifications...lower inductance will result in lower motor noise (better/eery/spooky neat 'imaging') and more signal is piped thru due to lower resistance (more 'detail', perhaps?). The Grado retains the 'meat' that MM/MI's are sometimes described...yet have good imaging and detail properties.

Again, without a fluid damped arm and patience and tweek knowledge, I cannot recommend them

For $79 or so at www.soundsunique.com, the venerable ADC XLM Mk. III is peerless. Mike there in San Jose, CA still had hundreds a few months ago NOS from the early 80's. It doesn't have the moving coil 'magic' sound, but it's robust, extremely linear and right sounding, fairly unfussy (it likes lighter arms as a higher compliance cartridge). I think every vinyl-ista should own or hear one to re-orient themselves in what they should be listening for.

It is just a blast to listen to. You may move on in search of that something that moving coils bring to the party, but you'll always appreciate the ADC for what it does. It's reasonable low in inductance and resistance and a fair shot better than most MM cartridges right up thru $500.

Regards, John

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 08:27 pm »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 11 Feb 2009, 06:20 pm

Try 1000k loading on the Blackbird, and you will be very surprised
at the results.

Great point! I do find it sounds better at 1k, and also at 470 ohms. Just have to bump the volume control a little at 470.

I am reading about the Denon now, whoa - lot's of info out there on this one!

The ADC sounds like good clean retro fun for 79 dollars. Not much to lose at this price, other than how you spend your free time. Very tempting indeed.

Would a Grado work well on a nottingham space deck/space arm?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 08:57 pm »

I don't know the Nottingham...if it's fluid damped, you have half-a-leg up on getting the Grado to sound wonderful

If it doesn't, try the ADC for grins and giggles and just enjoy the hell outta' it

Resistive loading does work....but, it really is a fancy tone control in the end. It has not turned any cartridge from a sows ear into a silk purse...but, can improve both MM and MC's when you play around with it.

The inductance of most HOMC's is usually around 0.2-0.4 mH I think (by contrast, the hi output Grado's are 45mH and the pricey Ortofon 2M series is a fully senseless 600mH). You guarantee yourselves a less-than-transparent treble with high inductance...even if everything is stellar about the cartridge.

$99 for the basic Ortofon might be okay...but $600 for the top-of-line 2M version with very high inductance figures is truly senseless and would rate as vastly overpriced on my scale. But, many cartridge makers spray a little foofie dust about and make us pay, pay, and pay some more

I've found that 1K loading is far too low (it sounds [electrically] overdamped at 1K) and found more like 2-4K to be right.