[BPT]

Just tried the new 7.4 beta and I hear some improvements. I have been good about upgrading and listening to all the new software (and firmware) with my SB3, usually with very little or no improvement in overall sound quality--though the features have improved. Today I tried the 7.4 beta because in the notes it says WAV files are now played as PWM (it used to say WAV to WAV native --no transcoding). Well, I hear sound that is more natural with cleaner space and better timing. The frequency balance and tonality are unchanged, but it has a certain immediacy and correctness (Is that a word?) that it lacked previously. Similar to modding a DAC with a Superclock. Anyone else tried it that can confirm, deny or comment?
Chris H.

[NewBuyer]

Just tried the new 7.4 beta and I hear some improvements. I have been good about upgrading and listening to all the new software (and firmware) with my SB3, usually with very little or no improvement in overall sound quality--though the features have improved. Today I tried the 7.4 beta because in the notes it says WAV files are now played as PWM (it used to say WAV to WAV native --no transcoding). Well, I hear sound that is more natural with cleaner space and better timing. The frequency balance and tonality are unchanged, but it has a certain immediacy and correctness (Is that a word?) that it lacked previously. Similar to modding a DAC with a Superclock. Anyone else tried it that can confirm, deny or comment?
Chris H.

Thanks Chris for the heads-up on this, I'll have to check it out.  Do you happen to know what the difference is, between PWM and "WAV to WAV native (no transcoding)? 

[Rashiki]

The changelog (http://svn.slimdevices.com/repos/slim/7.4/trunk/server/Changelog7.html) says that bug 10026 was fixed and the bug title was: "PCM != WAV".

From the bug summary, it looks like this is just a fix for sending WAV header data when the player was expecting raw PCM, resulting in a bit of header data being interpreted as audio data. I didn't see anything about PWM, which would be quite a different story.

 -Rob

[BPT]

Rob:
I loaded the latest version today. In SqueezeCenter Settings under File Types it shows File Format "WAV", Stream Format "PCM" and Decoder "Native". Also the FastForward and Reverse on the remote now works with WAV files in 7.4.

NewBuyer:
I do not know the details.

Just checking to see if anyone else has tried it and what they hear, so i can decide if I need to change my medication or not.

Chris H.

[Tyson]

I just tried it as well.  I get better focus of images and each sound is more specific to itself in tonality and location.

[zybar]

I just tried it as well.  I get better focus of images and each sound is more specific to itself in tonality and location.

Tyson,

Are you using FLAC files?

Did you change any settings to get the improvement?

George

[Tyson]

Yep, using FLAC.  No change in any settings, just ran the 7.4 executable.

[zybar]

Yep, using FLAC.  No change in any settings, just ran the 7.4 executable.

Thanks.

[ted_b]

Yep, using FLAC.  No change in any settings, just ran the 7.4 executable.

So I assume you transcode/convert to WAV (now PCM) in SC, as opposed to sending FLAC -> FLAC all the way to the player? (cuz there was no change in the FLAC decoder from 7.x to 7.4).

Edit:  So I tried an experiment.  I listened to my eval playlist (a mix of redbook and 24/96 FLAC files) in 7.4 with FLAC -> FLAC as normal.  Sounds fine, sounds good.  Then, I changed the FLAC decoding to PCM (i.e decode in the server rather than the player) and DAMN if two things don't happen:
1) redbook sounds slightly better with the PCM stream, a litttle warmer, a little more air, etc. (trying to believe it's not placebo)
2) my 24/96 FLAC files no longer play...or shall I say they play frickin loud and are nothing but all HISS, like a bad DTS stream. 

I wonder what goes on when you choose two (2) decoding formats?  I mean, each file type has like 2 or 3 streaming choices, and there is no rule or flag that says all can't be active.  Not sure what the logic or hierarchy is.   Hmmm.

[zybar]

Yep, using FLAC.  No change in any settings, just ran the 7.4 executable.

So I assume you transcode/convert to WAV (now PCM) in SC, as opposed to sending FLAC -> FLAC all the way to the player? (cuz there was no change in the FLAC decoder from 7.x to 7.4).

Ok, I want to be sure I am using the best settings...

When I look in the settings at the advanced tab and select file type, I see the following for FLAC:

File Format               Stream Format                  Decoder

FLAC                            FLAC                             Native or Disabled (only options possible)
FLAC                             MP3                              Disabled (grayed out - no options possible)
FLAC                             WAV                            FLAC or Disabled (only options possible)

What should be selected for optimal playback of FLAC files?

I currently have Native and FLAC as my selections for the FLAC and WAV stream formats respectively.

Thanks,

George

[ted_b]

Yep, using FLAC.  No change in any settings, just ran the 7.4 executable.

So I assume you transcode/convert to WAV (now PCM) in SC, as opposed to sending FLAC -> FLAC all the way to the player? (cuz there was no change in the FLAC decoder from 7.x to 7.4).

Ok, I want to be sure I am using the best settings...

When I look in the settings at the advanced tab and select file type, I see the following for FLAC:

File Format               Stream Format                  Decoder

FLAC                            FLAC                             Native or Disabled (only options possible)
FLAC                             MP3                              Disabled (grayed out - no options possible)
FLAC                             WAV                            FLAC or Disabled (only options possible)

What should be selected for optimal playback of FLAC files?

I currently have Native and FLAC as my selections for the FLAC and WAV stream formats respectively.

Thanks,

George

See my edit above.  If you want to have the player do the decoding (and reduce your network load) then disable the third option, if you want the server to send PCM, disable the first option....by the way, the bolded WAV should say "PCM" in 7.4, not WAV.  I'm wondering what it does if you enable both first and third (weird, but not sure I've noticed or cared in the past few years of Squeeze Center/Slim Server experience)

[zybar]

Thanks Ted.

The settings I listed above were the default settings in my v7.3.2 install.

I seem to recall reading that in earlier versions of Slim Center, it was potentially better (from a sonics perspective) to decode on server side - does anybody know if that is true in Slim Center?

I will of course try both tomorrow night for myself, but I am still curious as to how others have theirs setup.

George

[ted_b]

So I solved my problem by converting the 24/96 files to Wavpack (keeps the tags, etc. rather than going WAV) and then it uses it's own PCM decoder further down the list.  Voila.  I like the new 7.4 PCM sound. 

[rydenfan]

Wow! pretty interesting. I wonder why it would change the sound between being decoded in the player and the server 

Kinda reminds me of the on-going bitstream versus LPCM debate..

[Philistine]

This is an interesting topic, reading through the Slimdevices forum doesn't really help.
Isn't another variable in this related to your server being dedicated or not?  I was under the impression that reading from a hard drive and doing the conversion from Flac to WAV is a light work load for a modern PC, and if you could also dedicate your stand alone music server to this task alone then conversion at the server was the way to go

Maybe you should jump into the SlimDevices forum Ted and ask the question, if you haven't been flamed out yet for having the temerity to own a modded TP.

[ted_b]

Chris, you have hit the nail on the head on this one.  Thanks so much for posting this thread.   

The new PCM streaming is incredibly improved.  I can't say enough about it.  Correctness?  Yes!  Better timing and prat?  Yes.  The soundstage is so well focused now, it's like a brand new upgraded component....seriously.   Hell, maybe I've been a fool all along thinking that FLAC -> FLAC (decoding in the Transporter) was 6 of one, half dozen.....and maybe wav decoding has been better all along....but I know I've tried it before and it didn't make a damn but of difference.  Tonight?  Well, I just listened to Norah Jones' Come Away With Me, not the best most-audiophile recording in the world...it's always been slightly harsh in my opinion...especially her voice, although I really enjoy the songs.  Tonight it was hearing it for the first time.  Same with Cassandra Wilson - Blue Light Till Dawn.  The sonic landscape on that album came to life like never before (and it's well produced by Craig Street, an adventurous producer).  Very very good job Logitech.  (or my Larry David voice....pritty, pritty good).   

[zybar]

So I solved my problem by converting the 24/96 files to Wavpack (keeps the tags, etc. rather than going WAV) and then it uses it's own PCM decoder further down the list.  Voila.  I like the new 7.4 PCM sound. 

So I have to convert my 24/96 FLAC files to Wavpack in order to use the PCM decoding?  Was this for all your 24/96 files Ted?

What did you use to convert the files?

Thanks,

George

[ted_b]

I used DBPoweramp's Music Converter (once installed it's a selection when you right click a music file..."convert it"), on very high quality setting.  I'd first listen to some redbook FlAC files to hear if the quality improvements in 7.4 are worth doing the Wavpack 24/96 work.  Yes, I converted all my 24/96 files.  Took 20 minutes.

Once converted, remove the FLAC versions (I stored them in another non-SqueezeCenter folder) and simply do a "look for new and changed music" rescan.

[BRN]

Chris,

Thanks for the information. I loaded 7.4 and disabled FLAC and enabled PCM and just from the quick listen I like what I hear. I will have to do more listening or should I say enjoying the music before I can put my finger on the changes.

Brad

[lcrim]

I downloaded and installed 7.4 after reading this thread last night.  All files are flac from RB rips @ 16/44.1 and I tried listening in both systems I own.  Tried w/ flac set to Native in the decoder column and PCM  disabled and then switched to Flac disabled and PCM set to Native.  ABing those two setups I'm damned if I can hear a difference.  I tried shutting down SqueezeCenter to see if it needs a restart to take the change, still can't hear a difference between the two settings.  Overall, it does seem like an improvement over 7.3.2  The cohesiveness of the music is better and detail seems improved.  I wonder if I hear improvements because I want to but after all that I do feel like the quality has improved noticeably.